god supports anc zuma cartoon

god supports anc zuma cartoon

God supports the ANC, you should too!

Jacob Zuma, when referring to the church’s support of the ANC yesterday, declared “it is an unequivocal biblical declaration that if God is for us, who can be against us.” This of course led to the headline: Zuma: God is for the ANC on News 24

After a number of controversial statements made by the ANC leaders recently comparing Jacob Zuma to Jesus a la Ace Magashule and prior accusations of ANC using God to get votes, Wonkie feels that Mr Zuma is unfairly favouring Christians in South Africa – after all, if you prick a Muslim, Jew, or Hindu – do they not bleed? Can their God(s) not also endorse a political party?

No doubt, an important question on Helen Zille and the DA’s mind is how now can they top this ANC endorsement. Wonkie has heard unconfirmed rumours that Mrs Zille has called an emergency meeting with the Jehovah’s Witness Political Party Blessing Committee.

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Comments

  1. just goes to show that politicians will go to any lengths to further their party’s and thereby their own interests

  2. Be Afraid be VERY AFRAID, THIS IS WHAT HITLER SAID!!!!!!!!

  3. gillkitty says:

    Politicians don’t need God’s approval.. they ARE God.. aren’t they?
    hahahaha

  4. There is something that i dont understand here about this biblical phrase of “if God is for us, who can be against us”. Is it meant only for certain people or certain denominations or groups or parties?
    Cant I also claim it? Cant Zille, Obama, Patricia De Lille, or Zuma for that matter Claim it? Cant all Christians claim it?
    Why is it wrong if Zuma Claims it?
    Why is it wrong if he says: If God is for us who can be against us? Or is it wrong to mention the name of God in an ANC context? Is the ANC not suppose to call on God to protect it?
    The ANC is a collective body enthrusted with a task of being the ruling party. If they call on God to protect the party, then surely it must be a good thing to do! Unless of course if you are a member of the opposition!!
    Is it of any relevance that we have freedom of religion in this country?
    Then why all the fuss about Zuma calling on God to protect the ANC?

  5. Joseph Mabena says:

    @Mpepho – nobody else except Mr Zuma is saying it otherwise I’m sure they would be made fun of here as well. God supports the ANC… please if you can’t see the humour in that I think you’re just taking life too seriously.

    I am an ANC supporter and will definitely vote ANC in the upcoming election but I still don’t think it’s morally right for the Church to endorse 1 party like this… God is above the politics of man.

  6. I think this is the kind negative reporting that we have been taliking about all along. Ace Magashule said Jesus suffered under the hand of fellow humans and managed to overcome.
    He inspired fellow ANC supporters not be dispaired at Zuma’s suffering at the hand of fellow country men and assured them that he will also overcome this.
    Now you tell me what is wrong with that! It seems as if there is a concerted effort in the media to try and crimininalise everything that ANC leaders are saying. Are we not suppose to draw courage and optimism from biblical personalities? The purpose of the bible is to show us how we are supposed to live our mortal lives!
    We must aspire to live like Jesus, to walk His ways, to talk his language! What is wrong with encouraging ANC supporters by reminding them about how Jesus suffered? Is Jesus not also a Jesus of ANC supporters?
    I agree with Mpepho that freedom of religion is something that needs to be underlined here, because there are people who think that they are the only ones who can call on God for help while others such as Zuma and Ace should not bother! What a sick world!

  7. Boitumelo says:

    Xolani – excellent intepretation of their words. I wish someone like you could follow these ANC guys around and subtitle everything they say so the media does not take the worst possible meaning every time.

  8. Isaac Plaatjies says:

    Joseph brother, this is exactly the kind of thing that we cannot allow as ANC members – to allow the media to turn our party and its leadership into objects of laughter and jokes.
    This is the kind of thing that we must discourage because ANC suporters like me and you are sometime the only people available to prevent the public from perceiving the ANC and its leadership as a JOKE. Im sure you are aware of the current sustained onslaught that is being carried out by the media on our organisation and it comes in different manifestations – negative publicity, comics, cartoons etc.
    ANC supporters cant be participating in laughter exercises when their organisation is under attack by these sinister forces.
    We have a duty to correct these perceptions and confront them head-on. Because if we dont, someone will go home tonight and believe ZUMA IS SEEING HIMSELF AS JESUS!!
    And this is the kind of neagtive seeds thats being planted in the minds of people by means of cartoons etc, and this is why people believe Zuma said he took a shower to cure Aids. When this was never the case! This was ZAPIRO’s work! Zuma explained all this in his public apology. But still today, people believe this nonsens.
    We really cant affort to sit down and particpiate in this, as ANC MEMBERS we must defend our organisation and its leadership against this attacks.

  9. @Mphepo. The reason people object to Zuma claiming the endorsement of the church is that he is also claiming the endorsement of the witchdoctors and the ancestors. If a person professes to be a Christian (as in a follower of the ways of Christ) then that same person should know that the bible says “Thou Shalt have no other God but Me” (one of the ten base commandments made by God Himself). To then turn around and try to get the votes of those who follow ancestor worship by claiming to follow it as well means that his claim of being a christian becomes shaky at best. That is where the objection is coming in. I hope that clarifies the matter a little.

  10. gillkitty says:

    Bua, what did Hitler say?

  11. gillkitty says:

    You all need to understand what a satirical cartoonist is doing.
    WONKIE is doing what a political, satirical cartoonist does.
    It’s an art form. and should be seen as such, as well as a reflection of the mood of the populace.
    Ask around your workplace about the Hon. Pastor Zuma.. and see the many different commentaries.
    Bravo S Africa for being a supporter of free speech and brave WONKIE

  12. Isaac – due respect but you need to see the humour in all this too. I haven’t seen Helen Zille and DA fans getting all defensive when people make jokes about them.. not the way you’re defending Mr Zuma and the ANC. Perhaps you feel the need to do so because all this has some underlying truth to it that disturbs you.

    Angie – your point is stated so objectively and for me it hits the nail on the head – thank you! I believe the word you’re looking for to describe Mr Zuma’s actions is hypocritical. Isaac, Xolani, Boitumelo, Mpepho I suppose you will now regard my comment as being part of a smear campaign against the ANC because I state this fact!

  13. @ Thabo. Thank you 🙂

  14. bakenshark says:

    @gillkitty…you preach man!!

  15. gillkitty says:

    hey thanks bakenshark !

  16. Thanks for the comments everyone.. please do keep them coming – it’s great to have such a diverse set of opinions expressed on the site.

    @Mphepo, Isaac – definitely some good points.. thanks. I think the ANC gets dragged over the coals disproportionately by the media in South Africa. They are the ruling party though so this is to be expected to some extent. A positive way of looking at this is that when you actually DO things like the ANC is doing you will likely get criticised. If you don’t do things there’s nothing to talk about. As far as politics goes, I would rather a party do things and get criticised for a bad attempt than not do anything at all to avoid bad press. Thankfully, we have people like you and Xolani that will bring the positive the ANC is doing to the forefront lest people forget the good points with all the negative press! So thanks and please continue to contribute here..

    @Joseph Mabena – thanks brother and you’re right – guys shouldn’t take things too seriously.. we’re just taking a humourous look at daily events to get a discussion going on the issues at hand.

    @Xolani – point taken about the negative spin the media gives when reporting news. I don’t think this is specifically against the ANC though.. it’s just that they are in power and have the lion’s share of air time because they are – and should be – in the public firing line to keep them honest. Like the Republicans were when Bush was in power in the US and the democrats are now there with Obama. If the DA was in power here I’m sure they’d be complaining that Wonkie has become an ANC mouthpiece with all the criticism they would get!

    @Angie, Thabo – great comment and it really gets to the heart of the matter.. thanks! It’s funny because of the hypocrisy and opportunism of it all.

    @Gill – OMG… political satire! Is that what we’ve been doing? And all this time we were just intending to victimise Zuma, Malema and associates! LOL. Thanks for the kind words and the support… they definitely earn you a Wonkie T-Shirt as soon as we have some made! 🙂

  17. @Angie. No im afraid that does not clarify the matter, it rather complicates it. You see Angie, if you dont understand the culture of particular tribe, then instead of going on an all out critique, rather try to understand and appreciate it. You are obviously confused and has very little insight into these traditional matters.
    Did you know there is a difference between what you call a witchdoctor and a spiritual healer? And did you know that the tribal practice of calling on your ancestors to protect you for example is not what you passionately call “ancestor worship”?
    Would you call a person that engages in pre- marital sex (which the bible strongly condemns) – that “his claim of being a christian becomes shakey at best”?
    You see Angie, the problem with most western societies is that they want to define everything according to their western standards, and all other practices that are not the same as their’s are wrong!
    They strongly condemn for instance the practice of one man having four wifes, because in the western and modern day culture is it acceptable to have one wife only.
    But i myself is s decendent of the Mthembu tribe, and Mthembu men are allowed to have more that one wife! (Altough im having just one beautifull wife).
    All im trying to say Amy is that christians are christians because of their worshipping and believe of Christ. It is not upon me and you to deny a person claiming to be a christian, his christianity on the basis of our nonappreciation of his/her culture.
    Spiritual healers uses their ability to communicate with the forefathers to effect certain things. Eg to heal a sick person, to remove badluck etc. This is a far cry from being a witchdoctor and worshipping ancestors as you claim!!

    I really dont mind if people are fair and objective in their critisism of the ANC and its leaders. I do however mind if people peddle myths, untruths etc about the ANC AND ITS LEADERS.

  18. Isaac Plaatjies says:

    @Angie, I guess you are thus confirming Mphepo’s question of whether The phrase “if God is for us who can be against us” can only be claimed by certain people, groups, parties and that Zuma and Ace Magashule cannot claim it.
    Now, how about telling us who these people are that CAN and MAY claim the prase?
    Mpepho, thanx for lecturing the Wonkie subscribers about these traditional matters. I think you deserve an ANC T-SHIRT!

  19. Xolani P says:

    @Gilllkitty, wonkie is unfortunately part of the media machinery that is busy carrying out its sustained undue attack on the ANC Leadership and unfortunately have to face the wrath of the ANC membership and cannot be spared. We also understand that it is exactly this kind of “political satirical cartoonists” that are mostly guilfy of peddling untruths about the ANC and its leaders.
    Thabo, the only thing that is “OBJECTIVE” about your praise of Angie’s ignorant comment is your lack of appreciation and understanding of black cultures. The only smear campaign that needs to happen, is one that would transform you from a black to a white person using “white kiwi shoe polish”!

    And Angie, the “objection” doesnt come in because of Zuma’s “ANCESTOR WORSHIP” as you ingnorantly calls it, the problem is that there is a media objection to every thing the ANC is saying or doing!

  20. @Mpepho. You are absolutely correct when you say that I have very little insight into the traditional beliefs of the various tribes of African persons living in Southern Africa and elsewhere in the world. You are also correct in your observation that people raised in the western culture are generally poorly educated in this matter. I would however like to point out a couple of things to you.

    I did not at any time previously go “on an all out critique” as you claim. What I attempted to do was voice the view of those who neither follow nor understand ancestor consultation. I am not saying that either one is “right” or “wrong”, simply that this is the perception. I shall however oblige you by giving you the “all out critique” here and now.

    In response to your question: “Would you call a person that engages in pre- marital sex (which the bible strongly condemns) – that “his claim of being a christian becomes shakey at best”?” Absolutely I would. If the bible says it is wrong and I profess to follow the teachings of the bible then yes it is wrong. Please note my wording there….”If I PROFESS to follow the teachings of the bible…”.

    I am aware that there is a difference between a witchdoctor and a spiritual healer, traditionally refered to under the title of “Sangoma”. Every tribal member I have spoken to has spoken about visits to the sangoma for healing and protection, and it is perhaps the use of this word which confuses people from a western culture.

    I have never “denied a person his / her christianity on the basis of my nonappreciation of his / her culture”. To accuse me of doing so indicates that you have taken what I wrote entirely out of context. If someone claims to be a christian, professes that God leads them in their life, and behaves in accordance with the teachings in the bible, then they are called Christians. If a person says that they are a christian then exhibits behavior not in keeping with what the bible tells us is acceptable behavior, then their claims of being a christian do indeed become shaky.
    The bible tells us that by his fruit (meaning actions) a Christian shall be known.

    As to why a person cannot consult sangomas and still call themselves a christian, here is what the christian bible has to say on the matter: 2 Kings 23 v 24 “Moreover, Josiah removed the mediums and the spiritists and all the teraphim and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might confirm the words of the law, which were written in the book that Hilikiah the priest found in the house of the Lord” Leviticus 20 v 27 “Now a man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their bloodguiltiness is upon them” In light of that, how can a person consult with a spiritist and still call themselves a christian? That would be the epitomy of “sitting on the fence” and of such people God says “…I shall spew them out…”.

    Just in case there is confusion as to whether a sangoma is a spiritist, here is what wikipedia has to say on the matter: “Sangomas have many different social and political roles in the community: divination, healing, directing rituals, finding lost cattle, protecting warriors, counteracting witches, and narrating the history, cosmology, and myths of their tradition.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangoma,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divination.
    An Excerpt reads: “Shamans perform a variety of functions depending upon their respective cultures: healing; leading a sacrifice; preserving the tradition by storytelling and songs; fortune-telling; acting as a psychopomp (literal meaning, “guide of souls”). In some cultures, a shaman may fulfill several functions in one person.”

    As you can see from the above links, it is far from being something “I claim” but is rather the way the tribal peoples have described their belief system to others. As for “western cultures” defining everything according to our standards and deeming “all other prectices that are not the same to be wrong”, I am hardly qualified to comment on that sort of sweeping generalisation.

    In closing, a person who uses a spiritist to consult with ancestors is performing an act which according to the christian bible is an abomination in the sight of God. Thus the person performing this act cannot be a christian at the same time. That is the point which I was attempting to make and it is the point which raises the objection of the people in this country who follow the bible’s teachings.

    @Xolani P: The above comments show that the “objection” does in fact – at least in part – come from Zuma’s double standard and hypocracy in this regard. Unlike you, I have furnished sound arguments for my case, so please refrain from calling me ignorant until and unless you can prove what I have said to be false!

    @Isaac Plaatjies: Please refrain from putting words into my mouth. I was trying to make a simple observation. I have provided a full explaination of those views above. I do not know Magashule and thus cannot comment on anything pertaining to his religeous views, but Zuma has made his beliefs plain through his actions as played out in the media.

    I will grant you that the media has a tendency to sensationalise everything they report and I doubt that Zuma is as bad a person as they would have us believe, but he himself has made it plain that he is attempting to walk both sides of this particular fence, which is simply not possible.

  21. gillkitty says:

    Hi Xolani! isn’t this Forum great? It’s a shiny bright light in the murkiness of dirty politics and never fails to make me thank God for Nelson Mandela, and the democracy he placed in all our hands.
    In a democracy Xolani, we allow people to show their feelings and march to the beat of their own drums. Unlike some countries in the world who chop off body parts and behead those who do not follow them blindly like sheep.
    In a 1st world democracy – we respect one anothers rights to say what they feel, and whilst we may not agree, we accept they have a right to express it. Where it becomes a NO NO (in my eyes) is when it becomes hate speech. Hate speech is unacceptable to me. Making fun of, or parodying political figures is not hate speech unless it incites hatred against a specific group of people. Thus – if it is Islamophobic, or anti Semitic or anti White etc – it is un-funny and hateful. I don’t regard that kind of cartoon as worth my loudest snort!
    Take care Xolani. Have a brilliant weekend

  22. gillkitty says:

    Sizwe my man!!
    I want a WONKIE SHIRT!!!

  23. Hey Zuma is so confused today he promotes mshini wami but 2moro is God on his side, whats going on that man’s head?

  24. gillkitty says:

    Dolly.. I love when he does mashini wama dance. It’s a catchy number. If he is clever, he’ll train young Julius Dilemma Malema to put on am endangered species animal skin, some feathers from Mr. Broom who comes to get a coffee and a sandwich at my house every Saturday, and we’ll have the world’s 1st Cabaret Cabinet Govt.
    hehehehe

  25. Xolani P says:

    Gill, Its very enlightning to hear your recognition and thankfulness of the achievements of Nelson Mandela and the fact that he delivered democracy to all of us.
    But Gill why single out Nelson Mandela? Because he acted as a member of a collective! And that collective is the ANC. Nelson Mandela didnt deliver freedom into all our hands. The ANC together with its social partners did! And he himself always reminded us of that! So how about crediting the appropriate body/ collective for this achievement – the ANC?
    But i must agree, democracy is much better than apartheid! It would have been a greater system however if it could guarantee the dignity of every SA citizen and that nobody goes to bed with an empty stommach. Poverty is unfortunately the greatest ever attack on the dignity of any human being and it is common knowledge that Democracies have got limitations and does not necessarilly enjoy the support of everyone!
    You are right when you say we should respect one anothers right to say what they feel even if we disagree with that.
    My only problem however, is that i cant accept that a person have a right to express or peddle untruths or defame another person by means of utilising a form of art namely, cartoons!
    The ANC, when it liberated this country clearly stated that the country belongs to ALL WHO LIVE IN IT, black and white! That is what we fought and died for! So hate speech is a definite NO NO for the ANC too.
    Hey Gill, you too deserve an ANC Tshirt!

  26. gillkitty says:

    Hy Xolani.
    What a great post. I have to agree with a lot of what you said but I want to add some salt and pepper and maybe some Peri peri too! Yes Nelson Mandela AND the ANC brought an end to apartheid. So did F W de Klerk and the National Party. See where I am going? If not for FW.. then what? As far as showing respect for what the ANC stands for – I show respect for all who deserve it and I lose that respect when the person and group don’t deserve it. Right now I do not respect the ANC for denying the Dalai Llama the right to come here for fear of upsetting trading partners China.
    This game called politics is indeed a yoyo isn’t it?
    Go well my friend

  27. @Angie, now the puzzle becomes even more complicated! Angie my advise to you was, Instead of going on all out critique of african cultures and traditions, try to understand and appreciate them. They are well established and predate you and your critique by centuaries!
    Which tribal people have you spoken to? Have you spoken to the Mthembu chief? Or the Zulu royal house? Or was it one of the ‘western’ tribal people?

    No seriously Angie, and with all due respect, you are mixed up my sister, seriously mixed up about our cultures and traditions. Please do not even attempt to talk about them because you are going to do great injustice to them due to you non-appreciation.
    The reason for that is your continued reliance on unreliable WESTERN sources (wikepedia) etc. Wikepedia is the one single source that any good researcher would want to avoid if he wants the world to take his research seriously. Most academic institutions are discouraging the use/reliance on such sources exactly because of their unreliability.
    My contention is that the Western world want to define everything according to their standards, even OUR culture! Why not let me define my own culture an you define yours? then we will have a better understanding of what it entails.
    Angie, i have you on record for accusing Zuma of ANCESTOR WORSHIP! You further accused the man of WITCHDOCTOR ENDORSEMENT!
    Now that is some serious thing to accuse a CHRISTIAN pastor of! Or are you going to deny having said this?
    Will you be surprised if i tell you that a Sangoma is a traditional healer and not a spiritual healer? and that there are even distinct differences between these two practitioners?
    You see, what i said about Wikepedia?
    Traditional healers are around for ages Angie, they were the backbone of the health system back then. Even before the advent of the medical sciences, it was traditional healers that were treating and diagnosing the ill, using purely herbal plants and traditional medicines.
    The government has finally recognised them as practitioners today and they can even issue sick certificates! It is now a formalized and recognised practice and they subscribe to the national health act, and have membership to the South African Council of Traditional Healers – a statutory body established in terms of the national health Act.
    What did you call them again, Witchdoctors, spiritists?
    Isn’t a christian a follower of Christ? Is the Bible not saying, you may not judge?
    Why cant a christian not consult a sangoma with his sick child if this is the only service he can afford in todays ‘money driven’ world? Or have you forgotten about the millions of poor who still cant afford expensive medicines and who continue to rely on Sangoma’s and natural plants for protection, since this is the service closest and cheapest to them? Can you please appreciate this, Angie?
    Angie did you know that the majority of whites who commited the crime against humanity (apartheid) called themselves christians even today? Did you know that certain denominations (i can call them on my fingertips) didnt allow black membership and even endorsed apartheid, but still called themselves Christians?
    Did you know they once called US non-christians because of our political believes (communism, socialism etc)? Are you trying to repeat this call?
    Angie?

  28. Gill, Xolani offered you an ANC Tshirt man! What do you say about that?
    Delai Lama, was he refused his Visa by the ANC? I thought it was a government department called Home Affairs, WASNT IT? Is Ronnie Mamwepa not the spokeperson for Home Affair because i saw HIM on TV trying to explain why the VISA was not approved – or is he, not Jessie Duarte, the ANC’s spokesperson?.
    Hey Gill, I really didnt know the ANC is issuing VISA’s from Luthuli House REALLY!!

  29. @Angie, What would you call a person who believes in Angels.
    A person that tells you an Angel visited him last night and told him he will have a baby boy and he must give his name JESUS? A spiritist? or a spirit worshipper?
    Black people would call, what you belive to be an Angel, a forefather/ancestor. Because we believe they are with God (angels) wherever they are. And we believe they can see us and guide us away from harm.
    Some of us are being visited by these ancestors and are warned against certain hardship or negative eventuality that lies ahead. You would call that an Angel, we call this our ancestors. This is not ANCESTOR WORSHIP, Angie.
    When we say we call on our ancestors to protect us, you say the angels must protect you.
    You must really try to appreciate our culture sister! Dont Wikepedia our traditions please! I’ll give you a Zanu PF Tshirt!
    Zuma said the Ancestors must protect the ANC, he actually mean (the angels) by your definition. That is not worshipping of ancestors. We even do rituals to bring the ancestors home

  30. Xolani P says:

    Hey Gill, you know that FW did not do it because he had a change of heart! H e had no other option! He can never be credited with SA’s liberation because he served in the very government the ANC was fighting.
    It cannot be said that Nelson Mandela and the ANC brought liberation to this country, because then you would be separating the two. Nelson Mandela represented the ANC, they are one, he didnt participate on his own behalf! He remains and always has been a cadre of the African National Congress. He and many others did whatever they have done for liberation under the banner of the ANC. He was the ANC’s presidential Candidate and the ANC deployed him to government. This why we say the ANC is a collective!
    To try and diminish the party but upholding a particular individual is not helping.
    Dalai Llamma? We all know who approves/ disapproves VISAS in SA. Your friends in the media should know that we are not stupid and cannot be brainwashed.

  31. Isaac Plaatjies says:

    Just want to know what are Angie’s views on the Christianity of George Bush!

  32. gillkitty says:

    Xolani P and Mphepo
    Thank you for your comments.
    I collect T shirts, so ANC. DA, COPE and all the rest are welcome. Will I wear them? Noo… not even a WONKIE one because I don’t do freebies for any organisation, party or group!
    Politics is a web of many varied fibres – isn’t it? And we tend to stereotype which is bad.
    This whole debate started with a cartoon and the idea of free speech and the role of the cartoonist.
    Let’s keep it to that.
    I am learning a lot. THANK YOU

  33. @ Mphepo (March 23rd, 2009 at 10:43 am)

    WOW…I have NEVER seen such obvious disdain for another person’s opinions before. I doubt Jacob Zuma’s sincerity in his claims of being a christian the same way I would doubt barabas if he turned around on that fateful day all those thousands of years ago and claimed the same!

    I would like to know a couple of things though. You make a sweeping generalistation to the effect that:

    “Most academic institutions are discouraging the use/reliance on such sources exactly because of their unreliability”.

    My question to you is this: where is your evidence to support this claim?? I have heard no such claim on the international online media, nor have I heard anything from any of the lecturers at my local college. Please feel free to provide such evidence in future. In fact no….I insist that you supply such evidence as is needed in future. Failure to do so simply implies to those left reading your post that you have not bothered to obtain such proofs and as such have simply thumb sucked the claim in order to seem educated when in fact you know nothing on the subject. NOW….Having said that, I feel it necessary (based on your responses to date) to clarify to you that I am NOT calling you uneducated (far from it…you seem to have the ability to discuss matters in a relatively well thought out way- albeit without a shred of proof to back up your argument).

    You say: “My contention is that the Western world want to define everything according to their standards, even OUR culture!”

    ….wow…..and what of the many times that members of your culture have tried to define my culture? Is this yet more evidence of a double standard I see in people from a tribal background? You are utterly correct when you say I do not understand tribal cultures. I don’t understand how a father could sell his daughter to another man (or is lobola something else? I asked a guy who was about to get married what lobola was and he said it was bride price…a way to repay the parents for the value of the girl he was taking from them. this smacks to me of slavery).
    Another thing I cannot understand from tribal cultures is how a grown person could cut the genitals off a small child to make muti…..or is that another myth? maybe the many bodies found in dozens of rural places with just such mutilations are myths also? You laud your culture and want it left intact, then you leave by the droves to go and live in western countries like England and America. If your culture was so good then why do so many of your brothers and sisters all leave? In my culture selling a young woman for capital gain is not only morraly reprehensible but also just plain wrong!

    You say: “Angie, i have you on record for accusing Zuma of ANCESTOR WORSHIP! You further accused the man of WITCHDOCTOR ENDORSEMENT!Now that is some serious thing to accuse a CHRISTIAN pastor of! Or are you going to deny having said this?”

    I will not deny having said it. Moreover I stand by what I said. Jacob Zuma was raised in a culture which encourages communicating with the dead…..(I may have incorrectly used the word “worship” at the time but I believe I went back and rectified this in my next post if you bothered to read it properly), then he gets acquitted of a charge of rape and ALL OF A SUDDEN he becomes a Christian “pastor”? I dont buy it. He will have to prove to me that he has in fact become a christian before I will believe that he is doing anything more than putting on a show to con the gullible!

    You ask: “Will you be surprised if I tell you that a Sangoma is a traditional healer and not a spiritual healer? and that there are even distinct differences between these two practitioners?”

    No I will not be surprised. There are differences between Catholics and Protestants as well yet they are both still called christians…..so a spiritual healer and a traditional healer under tribal culture will both still be referred to as sangomas.
    In one of your comments you mention “…using purely herbal plants and traditional medicines.”

    Please define for us “westerners” what traditional medicines that are not plant based are?

    You ask: “Is the Bible not saying, you may not judge?”

    Indeed……except when it is my duty as a christian to rebuke a fellow christian for his sinful actions! Many are the biblical references of people killing other people for performing acts against the teachings of the scriptures.

    Having said that though, I feel it is again necessary to clarify the matter. I have not once gone out of my way to judge JZ or any other resident of this planet under my own capacity. The only thing I have done was attempt to clarify the opinions of the majority of people who have their eyes open enough to see the double standards paraded in front of us every day of our lives.

    If you want to quote scripture at me by the way then how about this one for a doozy: “A man should abide by the laws of the land in which he lives”

    Now you tell me how JZ is doing that by doing everything in his power to avoid going to court to prove his innocence in a number of different charges? And you want me to believe that a man like this is a christian? Let him prove it!

    And by the way….I am not what you would call a christian. My religeous affiliation is private and I prefer not to share it. However I was raised in a christian home hence my knowledge of such things.

    You say: “…did you know that the majority of whites who commited the crime against humanity (apartheid) called themselves christians even today?”

    Where do you get off claiming that “the majority of whites” committed crimes against humanity?? I have never done so neither has any white skinned person my age, so to generalise like that is proof that you know not of what you speak. Do you even know what a “crime against humanity” is?? How would you react if I made a sweeping claim that “the majority of black men are crimnals who rape children”? I, however, know that such a claim cannot be true because, for it to be true I would need to have personally met and gotten to know every single black man, as well as seen them commit this crime. Since I have done no such thing, I cannot know or claim any such sweeping generalisation. So do me a favor and stop making sweeping claims that you cannot and will not support with documented proof!

    You say: “Did you know they once called US non-christians because of our political believes (communism, socialism etc)? Are you trying to repeat this call?”

    I believe that if a person’s actions fit the claim then the claim is valid. End of story. If you behave like a christian then you will be accepted as a christian. End of story.

    In the case of “pastor” Jacob Zuma, I read the news around his achievement of this title. I would dearly love to see some sort of proof of which bible college he attended before being given this title. According to the article printed on the matter in News24s South African Daily “Zuma was later walked to the podium, where a prayer was dedicated to him.
    Bishop Ben Mthethwa then put a cleric’s collar on Zuma and declared him a priest.” I’m sorry but my friend declaring me a priest does not make me a priest…..a priest is made a priest after at least three years of study at a bible college and then several years of training in the religeous field you have chosen, under the leadership of an older cleric. One does not become a bona fide priest overnight just because his or her friend says that they are now a priest. In order to be a “christian pastor” one needs to at the very least know the ten base commandments and have knowledge of scripture. Jacob Zuma’s actions have said that this is clearly not the case.

    I am not decided one way or the other as to whether JZ will be good for this country or not. I honestly do not care what his personal beliefs or actions are within the privacy of his home. ALL that I was trying to say back in my first post was that his actions and words as portrayed by the media are causing confusion amongst those of us not raised in a tribal background.
    I believe I even mentioned that the media may be misrepresenting him….but of course you Mpepho wouldnt point that out now would you…because that would show that I am not on a JZ bashing escapade as you would have others believe.

    It was never my intention to “critique” anyone’s religeous beliefs or lack thereof as the case may be. However I will defend myself when someone tries to shred me while not providing any proof to back up their claims. I have made my point now 3 times and provided evidence to support my claim….lets see you do the same Mpepho! Bring me the evidence! THEN we can argue as informed residents of this glorious nation.

    @ Isaac Plaatjies I have no comment on Mr. Bush or his religeous views. I think his actions speak for themselves. I do not think that God would endorse a man who sent thousands to their deaths for some oil….but then I am not God so why ask me? Go ask God who He endorses.

  34. @ Bobo
    Honestly that is the first time someone has put it to me that way Bobo. Thank you for that.

    However to a christian person an Angel is not a departed loved one, an angel is a created being made by God to live in heaven and do His bidding. Angels seldom talk to people unless sent by God with a specific message. However I can appreciate your view in this regard of your relatives who have gone on before you, coming back to warn you of impending hardships.

    I have never claimed that a person’s ancestors never speak to them, however if you claim on a routine basis to seek out their advice through the aid of another person, then that person is indeed “One who walks with the spirits”. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but it is also frowned upon in the christian religeon. That is all I was saying.

  35. Mpepho you hit the right nerve!
    Take Gill’s advice! She’s starting to feel it, she is so emotional.
    Gill? What did you say about the salt? or is it curry and pepper and chilli?
    Mphepo take Gill’s Peri Peri and throw another teespoon full onto that wound my brother!!

  36. @ Angie, Oh i have never seen such disdain for another person’s culture before!
    I told you that instead of going on an all out critique of our cultures and traditions, rather try to understand and appreciate it.
    I am not going to teach you about ‘The Fundamentals of Reseach Methodology’. That is what your College tutor is getting paid for. But i am sure that any person of average intelligence, will first endeavour to understand the rules of the game before you enter into any match.
    So it is upon yourself to find out the general rules of Research Methodology before even trying claiming to be doing research.
    Ask your tutor about the reliability of Wikepedia, the internet and some data bases as sources for research – not me.

    I maintain that i have you on record for accusing Zuma of ANCESTOR WORSHIP and WITCHDOCTOR ENDORSEMENT. That is what you said! Or am i wrong?
    The Bible also says YOU MAY NOT JUDGE! Are you not doing exactly that now? Where does that leaves your christianity, SHAKY too?
    You are acknowledging your superficial insight into our cultural affairs, but at the same time you are continuing with your ignorant statements and remarks about it.
    Then why not again consult your Wikepedia about our lobola culture?

    You know Angie, I really dont care whether you understand LOBOLA or not. And i am not going to explain it to you, because it is not relevant to you anyway.
    You will never be able to experience the pride and sense of recognition in you tribe when as a young lady, you finally get the opportunity to proudly wear your traditional wear, your black head-cover (i’qiya) and your mid-body scarf (i’Binqa) that has been put around your waist by your proud mother in-law. So, go and consult Wikepedia! You have my permission, i dont care.

    But the royal house of my tribe is situated in the valeys and mountain slopes of the Eastern Cape province, somewhere in – between Bhisho and Idutywa. This is where you will find the Headman of the Mthembu tribe.
    For an objective understanding of these aspects, and for the purpose of lending greater credibilty to your Reseach project, go and consult this group of people.
    Jacob Zuma will not become a pastor on the manner prescribed by you and your western counterparts. He became a pastor on the manner prescribed by his denomination, not by western definition. That is what you need to understand.
    As for your long, exhaustive explanation about being christian or not i am putting it to you that Zuma is a christian pastor, and he need not to convince you otherwise. It is not upon yourself to decide who is christian or not, you dont have that authority, especiall given your SHAKY understanding of cultural issues.
    Your continued reliance on Wikepedia, News 24 and all these sources that you so famously quote, is just adding fuel onto the fire Nagie or is it Angie?

    This is just contributing to your clear STATE OF CONFUSION. It is so embarrassing and im really not enjoying, having to embarrass you so publicly. Rather try to understand the African cultures before going on an all out critique!
    The late Chris Hani, general secretary of the SA communist party (assasinated by Clive Derby Lewis), was once interviewed on Television. The question was:
    “Mr Hani, are you a Christian?”
    His answer was: ” If they who so brutally kill and murder our people, if they who so passionately purport, endorse and benefit from this CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY (apartheid), if they are christians, then i am not one of them…

  37. Isaac Plaatjies says:

    Nagie, ……Oops! Angie, what are you say about George Bush?

  38. NAGIE… must vote for the “Democratic Alliance of the Confused!”

  39. Nagie – No seriously my sister, you completely out of order now. Siply put, if not racist, you are just blatantly rude and disrespectful of black people.

    Sizwe, i think these comments of NAGIE boarders on racism. I am taking very strong strong exeption to her contention that the “dozens of mutilated bodies discovered in the rural areas” is the result of black cultural practices. She is clearly very emotional is now really loosing it.
    To attribute the “cutting-off of the genital of small children” to our black cultures is utterly racist and disrespectful.
    Black cultures are very sacred and are the things that the department of Arts and Culture as well as the Department of Local Government and Traditional Affairs are investing a lot of money in. They want to preserve these cultures and to ensure their survival and protect it against the ‘WESTERNISATION’ that is happening all over.
    These are very respectable cultures and were a system of ensuring social responsibility when no formal laws were in existence then. They are proudly practiced by the majority of SA black people. It comes really as a painful insult to hear someone, who doesn’t have the slightest idea of what they entail, talking such nonsense about it.
    And i think it would also help if we could ban such racist remarks and at the same time suspend the subscription of such people.
    Sizwe, we should also seriously look at the length of the comments, because NAGIE gave us a three page lecture of utter nonsense.

  40. Isaac Plaatjies says:

    Nagie – you know what a ‘SHAKY’ is in our black culture? It is a kind of a Beer that is brewed with yeast and other ingredients. It is packed into a small, longitudal 1litre box. It’s sold in crates that are containing 12 of these SHAKY boxes at a time. It used to cost one rand for a box of SHAKY then. It was a very popular beer when i grew up in the rural E/cape. So it sounds to me as if you took quite a good sip of it with all your confusion!

  41. @ Mpepho
    I have one thing to say to all of you who indulged in this rather entertaining “black intelligence” versus “white intelligence” argument. This site was meant to facilitate intelectual debate not character assassination. I will not be made to be like those of you who derive pleasure from assassinating the character, beiefs, culture and integrity of those who have the gall to voice their opinions.

    YOU Mpoepoe – and people with your backwards mentality – are why your preacious ANC and its preacious corrupt officials will turn South Africa into the next Zimbabwe.

    Here is my final word on this matter: Proverbs 23 v 3 – 12

    Sayonara bakka

  42. OY!!! Play nicely people! I understand the argument is a heated one but please refrain from personal attacks. We’re all entitled to our points of view regardless of how radical or seemingly inappropriate as they may be. And what’s with the name calling Nagie, Mpoepoe – sorry guys, it’s too late IEC placements are closed – you can’t form any new parties for the election now.

    Xolani – not quite sure why you feel Wonkie defamed anyone or is peddling untruths. The basis of most humour is looking at a set of events through a different or unexpected perspective. I don’t see the DA guys complaining when we rag on Helen Zille and DA on Wonkie – they mostly appear to take the joke and acknowledge the point being made. Do you really believe the ANC is squeaky clean and they can do no wrong? That no one should be allowed to criticise them? If you answer NO then why can’t Wonkie criticise them and make jokes about what is happening. If you answer YES then best you refrain from reading anything but ANC published documentation.

    @Angie – thanks for your comments. I think you certainly make some valid points about the inconsistency between Christianity and some other beliefs and I concur with the basis of your original point – Mr Zuma, or anybody else for that matter, cannot be everything to everybody.

    @Mphepo – some very good points there too – particularly those regarding interpretation and understanding of traditional black culture. To Mphepo’s point re: Angie’s comments being racist, I think it’s important not to generalise the beliefs of a few with those of an entire culture. And quite rightly, Wikipedia is a dodgy source at the best of times. Mphepo, I do appreciate why Angie would hold the view and think your explanations go some way in providing insight and appropriate intepretation – I certainly did not feel that Angie’s comments were malicious though – we all write based on our understanding and knowledge so please take it as such and if you feel she is misinformed by all means please continue to share your point of view so she (and others) can take it into consideration. Anyway, stripping aside the personal statements about each other’s level of intelligence, the underlying points I see are as follows:

    Angie – that there is inconsistency between Christian and traditional belief systems.
    Mphepo – that many elements of the traditional belief system are actually consistent with Christianity but just differently interpreted because of a strong western bias.

    I’ve received quite a few emails from other readers about the comments incidently – they’re finding the points of view on both sides very insightful. I would hope you’d all continue to help each other grow your understanding of each other’s culture rather than taking comments personally. If you feel someone is saying something inappropriate please give them the benefit of the doubt that they’re saying it because they don’t understand. Explain it to them by offering your insight and knowledge not slating them and starting a cultural war – if the other person is smart they’ll learn and be richer for your comment which is the point right?

    As for the Dalai Lama comments above – please check out the Dalai Lama refused South African visa cartoon. Regardless of who refused the visa, Mr Motlanthe did make a public statement on the subject. The score is currently Soccer-1, Spirituality and World Peace – Nil.

    And Gill – Oh no – you won’t even wear a Wonkie T-Shirt? 🙁 LOL

  43. gillkitty says:

    Xolani P
    You lost me… with the salt pepper and chili..
    Must I think out of the box?
    Please send instructions and recipe.

    hehehehehehe

  44. @Sizwe, point taken, I think i got the message. Angie, apologies for the character assasination. So Xolani P, Isaac, Bobo, the name is Angie, not NAGIE.
    You see, this is what disciplined ANC members are doing when they are at fault – PUBLIC APOLOGY, as JZ did.
    But i am not letting you off the hook, definitely not. Now where’s my Peri Peri, Gillkitty!!!!
    You see N****, aag man! not again!
    Angie, in my culture even our names have got meanings attached to them.

    My name, MPHEPO, is derived from a very special kind of a bush/shrub, with strong medicinal value.
    One of the most popular ways wherein it is used, is that Black people usually burn a small quantity of dried mphepo at night, just before sleeping time in the house. The doors and windows must be closed and everyboy in the house must go to bed. When the room becomes smoke filled, you start talking and calling on your ancestors (God’s Angels) to remove the bad spirits from your house. It is believed that a certain substance in the smoke of this plant chases away the evil spirits, or households having trouble with ghosts, bad dreams and nightmares, etc.
    And i for one, can guarantee you that it works 100%. I’ve used it in my house, and my problem is solved even today! I can even give you a small quantity of it because i keep stock of it in my house.
    Now will you again come tell me that i am practising witchcraft when i burn mphepo? or doing ancestor worship?
    Still on the meaning of my name – it is thus clear that my name means:
    “The one that drives away evil spirits.” So beware, Angie – you dont want to be mistaken as an evil spirit!
    Yes JZ has burnt mphepo and called on the ancestors to protect the ANC and to let the ANC win the elections.
    I guarantee you, Angie, it will happen…
    Gill!!!, my Peri Peri please.

  45. gillkitty says:

    MPHEPO, I loved that explanation of your name. Thank you for enriching me with that knowledge. It shocked me to realise that as a whitey – I never stopped to even THNK about asking the meaning of African names.
    As for peri peri.. come on over. I have all kinds of hot stuff *lol*

  46. Whilst i also agree with Mphepo on the sentiments around the character assasination of Angie, I remain unconvinced that her statements are not racially motivated.
    Angie’s comments suggest that black peole are dangerous, murderous, uncivilised cultural beings that kill people for the pupose of turning them into muti.
    Now i have a serious problem with Angie’s statement about the “dozens of mutilated bodies found in rural areas” as a result of black cultural practices and the “cutting off of the genitals of small children” to manufacture muti.
    I maintain that it is a serious racially motivated accusation, and it is really reminiscent of the dark old days of apartheid when black people were seen as “DIE SWART GERVAAR”.
    I however understand the position that Sizwe is finding himself in, and that he has to perform an egg-dance, but i strongly disagree with him that this should be attributed to Angie’s understanding and knowledge of the subject matter. There are just certain taboos when it comes to certain issues.
    These murders are the work of bad criminals, and there is no respectable black culture that would endorse the killing of a child to manufacture muti.
    And let me tell Angie that the very same “mutilated bodies found”, that she is accusing black cultures of, are the bodies of our black children, they are not white children.
    So are you suggesting that we kill our own children? So unless you do the honourable thing, like the ANC members have done, you will unfortunately go down as a racist in our eyes.

  47. gillkitty says:

    Xolani P
    and Angie..
    What one has to be very careful about – is stereotyping.
    Stereotyping is dangerous and leads to wars and wars lead to death.
    Islamophobia is one such example.
    If a Moslem man beheads his wife, then all Moslems are crazies who run about beheading women.
    Anti Semitism is another one.
    A Jew enters a mosque and lets rip with a machine gun and kills dozens of men and prayer. Therefor all Jews are loony murderers of Moslems.
    A black child is mutilated or raped – and all black men are disgusting rapists.
    See where I am going?
    The cancer of our society is stereotyping. We cannot afford to generalise and label. We need to start being circumspect, and we need to start a culture of respect for one another’s rights. Through forums (fora) like this excellent one – we can start this new culture. Through debate we learn. I am loving learning, and getting to know how all the varying view points meet or clash. It’s healthy and good. UNTIL it becomes a finger pointing exercise and destructive instead of CONstructive.
    Please continue to educate me.

    Best
    Gillkitty

  48. You are all correct. My comments were borderline racist and I apologise.

    I do not think that all black people are savage or criminal, and if that is the impression I gave I offer my most sincere apologies. Having said this, however I must point out that I was pushed into making such an emotional comment by being told that “The majority of white people committed crimes against humanity with apartheid”

    I will police my words better from this point on

    @ Mphepo thank you for the lesson on what your name means. I found it very enlightening. I am willing to learn more about your culture and practices if you will deliver such lessons in a way that doesnt come accross as being anti white people. I actually faught against apartheid even as a teenager and in junior school I was fluent in Zulu. Many of my friends throughout school have been of the darker skin tones and I have never previously been the kind to attack first and think later when it comes to a debate. I feel that I owe you a personal apology. Thank you for the rebuke.

    Incidentally, my name also has meaning. Angie is the shortening of my full name (Angelique Chantelle) which means Angelic Hosts to Sing on High.

  49. @ Mpepho: Please teach me more about the herb for which you are named. I am interested in aroma therapy and using natural herbs in methods of healing the body the mind and the spirit. I have never heard of such a bush before. Where does it grow? What are its medicinal uses? Where can I get some?

    Also if Wikipedia is a poor resource for online information, then where should I go for online research?

  50. @Angie, apology noted, and Gill, you can keep your Peri Peri until i decide to visit Nando’s! For it is intended to provide taste to food, not for sinister purposes! I’ll give you a R500 fine!
    Angie, the Mpepho shrub grows usually freely in nature, it likes humid soil types but can also be found in dry, arrid inland conditions. In nature, it grows to about half a metre long, thick – bushlike shrub. It has a light green-blue kind of colour with small white/yelowish flowers. The leaves are also very small, longitudal, and about 2 by 4 cm.
    In the Western Cape (Cape Town) i have seen them in large colonies growing on the mountain of Chapmans Peak on the Houtbay side of the mountain – not far from the Chapmans Peak roadside.
    When you travel from PE to Cape Town on the N2, the mphepo shrub/bush is also to be seen growing right next to the road in the area of Storms river, Plettenberg bay. Look for its distinctive light blue/green colour.
    I have some of it at my Cape Town house (dried of course, and ready to be burnt!) If you live around Cape Town i can give you a plastic shopping bag full. Or if you really want some, i dont know if Sizwe will allow the exchange of postal adresses (Postbox) then i can even mail you a shoe box full.

    Some people cook the mphepo leaves and branches in water, they brew a kind of a tea, throw it through a strainer and let it cool off. They then pour the mphepo tea into bottles and put it in the freezer. You can also mix the mphepo leaves with Mqebo (another medicinal plant – believed to improve fertility etc).
    You then pour yourself a nice glass full of the mphepo tea and gone are all you sorrows! Just be warned, its very bitter!!!
    It can be used to ‘clean the blood’ (immune booster), minor flue, highblood pressure, diabetes etc. It is also recommended for people with drinking problems etc. It can also be dried and be used as a powder.

    If you burn it at night, it relieves insomnia too!
    As i said, our people burn it at night just before sleeping time. You close all the doors and windows and nobody may leave or enter the house before the next morning. Put some dry mpepho on a saucer or plate, light it up with a macth and the smoke will soon fill the room. While the smoke fill’s up the room, you call loudly on your ancestors to remove the bad spirits/ghosts etc from your house. You only open the windows the following morning.

    I had a real problem with ghost in my house. My flooors were always cracking and there were always these strange sounds, noises or actvity at night coming from kitchen and other rooms. You could clearly hear the opening and closing of the freezer door or kithen doors – this happened even when i was alone in my house at night. And i was living in a decend up-class house in an enclosed security complex. It all stopped now! Its gone. I never heard of it again. Thanx to the Mpepho tree.

  51. gillkitty says:

    Mphepo

    Peri Peri is just one of many exciting herbs I use for cooking.
    I want to visit a herb garden some day like the one I once went to in Sri Lanka.. where the host told you about each herb and what it does for you.

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