Helen Zille DA objects to ANC cartoon

Helen Zille DA objects to ANC

Helen Zille diagnosed with Acute Objectionitis

Following on from the Downfall of Helen Zille and the DA in South African 2009 elections post last week, we thought it best to capture another important public perception about the DA.

There have literally been dozens of comments from ANC supporters complaining about all the negative media coverage ANC leaders – particularly the amount anger mis-management king Julius Malema and blessed ANC president Jacob Zuma have been receiving. Many of these comments have been rather defensive slating just about anything criticising the current ANC leadership as a smear campaign designed to discredit what the ANC has done to bring the country to freedom. It appears the merits of any criticism is simply overlooked.

Helen Zille and the DA on the other hand are perceived to be objecting to just about everything that moves within the ANC. Perhaps rightfully so, but Wonkie thinks they should pick their battles a little more carefully to control the view that they simply object for the sake of objecting. With the upcoming election, there is much work to be done by the DA to convince people outside their relatively small support base why their policies are so much better than any other parties – notably the ANC’s. Positioning themselves as whiney cows at this point is hardly a strategic way forward if they want to make an impact in South Africa.

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Comments

  1. Enjoyed this one – it expresses my frustration as a DA supporter.
    All she does is ‘yap’ and give ANC more publicity.
    She should speak about DA intentions to improve the country.
    We all know what is wrong with it and the ANC and cadres and their flouting our Constitution.
    Negative electioneering is doomed to failure – everyone loves the underdog.

  2. Good I think she needs to be told , in her case she should be a private investigator. she must get a Z4 application to be a police.

  3. Steve Rogers says:

    The difficulty for the DA is twofold:
    1. an apathetic population that doesn’t see the Zanupification of our country and
    2. the basic fact that each week, the ANC and its office bearers are involved in some new multi-million Rand scandal, cover up, corruption or incompetence.

    I agree the DA has unfortunately created an image of ‘whinging’ but let’s face it, the ANC provides plenty of ammunition for constant attacks.

    We have to be extremely careful to write off the ‘whinging’ as negative and pointless. It also speaks to a very real and growing problem: the complete corruption of the ruling party and government.

    SA citizens would do well to cast their votes very carefully on April 22, we are at the crossroads between the high and low roads right now.

  4. I totally agree with Steve Rogers — “nuff said!!!

  5. bakenshark says:

    Zille should learn some lessons from Sarah Palin’s experience…perhaps she has bought into the idea that any publicity is good publicity!

  6. @ Steve, Problem with you and the DA is that you tend to undermine the intelligence of the general poulation. Your insinuation of the SA population being apathic testifies to the disasterous path the DA is threading on. The reactionary politics of the DA is a far cry from being constructive. They failed to convince the population of its readiness to govern because they only critisize and doesnt offer solutions.
    They are overly focused on the ‘ammunition that the ANC is offering” that they cant even realise that it is an ANC strategy to keep them busy.
    The crossroads that u are mentioning is a crossroads between DA supporters and Cope supporters. ANC supporters know who theyr’e voting for. Dont be surprise if the DA loses more members to Cope than the ANC will.
    Because the majority of South Africans will vote Zuma into the union buildings next month.
    And you sound typical DA like with your favourite phrases – corruption, cover up, incompetence, scandal. You just didnt mention “independend iinvestigation”!
    You know Steve, as long as the DA acts as if apartheid never happened, and as long as they fail to address the plight of the majority of apartheid’s victims namely affirmative action, land redistribution, social security etc, they will never be able to make a meaningful dent into the ANC’s support base!
    This why Zuma will be your president next, corrupt or not.

  7. Steve Rogers says:

    Besides gender, I’m not sure Zille and Palin are in any way comparable. A hard working, gutsy activist, mayor and party leader in Africa against a small state Republican opportunist in America. let’s keep it real … and local.

  8. I think Zile must stop being so childish thinking that DA can win elections. I am a big support of ANC but I wish Zuma was not working together with Malema. Malema is not the kind I like he is such a mishave and he is not even full is an empty who ect like a basdard. For the fact that he insult older people than him that makes him more basdard.

  9. kewl site – this will also be added to my growing favorites !

  10. DA is counterfeit why always when the leader of the said party is talking about the the ANC people they want her, to commit herself with her organisation whais it that they are bringing in this country not what the ANC is doing,or maybe to criticise the ANC is a STATUS i dont know.

  11. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Bobo. Let’s work thru your comments.
    “Problem with you and the DA is that you tend to undermine the intelligence of the general poulation”

    Steve: I didn’t mention intelligence. You don’t have to be intelligent to draw comparisons between South africa and Zimbabwe/Kenya, so called democracies whose governments decided democracy wasn’t that good when they lost their respective elections and ignored the will of the people. Do you honestly believe the ANC will happily accept defeat at some point in the future when the people finally realise that the ANC is a vehicle for the gross enrichment of the few while the majority remain in difficult / terrible circumstances?

    “Your insinuation of the SA population being apathic testifies to the disasterous path the DA is threading on”
    Steve: I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    The reactionary politics of the DA is a far cry from being constructive.
    Steve: Why is anyone against the ANC “reactionary”? You sound like the white Nationalists who used to say if you’re against them, you’re a communist. That propaganda has been replaced by the ANC with its own “reactionary” and counter revolutionary” propaganda.

    “They failed to convince the population of its readiness to govern because they only critisize and doesnt offer solutions”
    Steve: Have you ever been to a DA meeting or read its policies? Obviously not.

    They are overly focused on the ‘ammunition that the ANC is offering” that they cant even realise that it is an ANC strategy to keep them busy.
    Steve: You may have a point here. I also wonder how many ANC members have been seconded to join COPE with a view to disrupting its constitutionally guaranteed right to start and run a political party.

    The crossroads that u are mentioning is a crossroads between DA supporters and Cope supporters. ANC supporters know who theyr’e voting for. Dont be surprise if the DA loses more members to Cope than the ANC will.
    Steve: I won’t be surprised. I don’t think a white led opposition party is ever going to gain power, even after “Jesus comes”. I completely accept that I live in a black majority country and I think Helen Zille (a very talented leader) is going to have to engage with this fact sooner than later.

    Because the majority of South Africans will vote Zuma into the union buildings next month.
    Steve: Yes, unfortunately they probably will. Let’s see how long it takes the ANC to scrap the charges against Zuma, to scrap the arms deal investigation, to neuter the NPA, to start lobbying for a third term for Zuma, to fiddle with the constitution: i.e. how long before they begin to dismantle the very democracy for which so many South Africans fought and died (Sorry, that’s an ANC phrase, I couldn’t think of a good DA one)

    And you sound typical DA like with your favourite phrases – corruption, cover up, incompetence, scandal. You just didnt mention “independend iinvestigation”!
    Steve: Sorry, how else do you describe the regular headlines involving ANC members and office bearers, the latest being Ngqula and Niehaus? If you prefer I can employ non DA words like theft, misappropriation of state / company funds, larceny, stealing, lying, fraud. Less “DA phrases”, same crimes being committed.

    You know Steve, as long as the DA acts as if apartheid never happened, and as long as they fail to address the plight of the majority of apartheid’s victims namely affirmative action, land redistribution, social security etc, they will never be able to make a meaningful dent into the ANC’s support base!
    This why Zuma will be your president next, corrupt or not.
    Steve: Bobo, why is it that if you don’t support the ANC, this means you think Apartheid didn’t happen? Of course apartheid happened, it was a disgusting system that destroyed the lives of millions of people and badly damaged the social fabric of South Africa. But that doesn’t mean I must just swallow whatever noise the ANC makes because they ‘delivered’ the country to freedom. It’s 15 years since 1994. The revolution is behind us, now we need to build the country and I’m just not convinced that the ANC has still got that as their main goal. I think that slowly but surely, the ANC is making long term moves to retain power “until Jesus comes”. And the old old saying will become true once more: Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    And by the way, don’t assume I support the DA.

    Vote carefully in the election. All best. Viva South Africa Viva.

  12. Xolani P says:

    @Steve, you just need to look at the statistics to see why the ANC will govern until Jesus comes. No political party in the history of this country has ever done to the majority of South Africans, what this ANC did. Yes, we are the first to admit, that there are shortfalls and we can do much better. But the statistics about making a difference to the lives of the poorest of the poor, is telling a very inspirational tale.
    It speaks of the achievements of a democratically elected government that has the interest of its people at heart. It speaks about the impact it manages to make in the lives of the ordinary man in the street. You know Steve, its a human rights issue. I usually get carried away if i must talk about the achievements of this government of the people, The ANC.
    We pride ourselves in our history as a political party, because we know that we are unmatched in this country and elswhere in subsaharan Africa. We are the architects of this constitution that you so famously claim and proudly uphold. If we need to tamper with it, that would be on the basis of how it would contribute to the improvement of the living standards of the poor, because we are a government that has the interest of our people at heart.
    The ANC is the ruling party.
    It received an overwhelming two- thirds majority mandate from South africans to govern this country. If it sees fit to disban the scorpions, to overhaul the criminal justice system including the NPA, for whatever reason, i and the millions of South African who constitute that two-thirds majority, gave them the mandate to do so by means our votes. And we will continue to do so in this election.
    Because we have seen and experience the real difference in our lives and in the lives of our families. And for as long as the ANC continues to deliver to the county’s poor, we will time and time over give them that majority to rule on our behalf, even until Jesus comes.
    The ‘difficult and terrible circumstances” wherein the majority lives, was created by the terrible system of apartheid over many many years, and we know that and we have lived under that.
    The ANC fought that, overcome that, and is busy addressing just that. We understand that very well, Steve. So there is no newspaper that will come and show me pictures of rural poverty and blame Jacob Zuma or Julius Malema for that! We know how it happened, and we are making it our business to address that. Scoring cheap political points is not in our nature, we dont just talk – we make a difference in people’s lives, with the limited resources at our disposal.
    Go look at how many people received houses, free basic services, tarred roads, schools, clinics, running water, electricity – and try to tell me that the ANC doesnt have the interest of the poor at heart? This is what really matters Steve, and this is why we are voting ANC until Jesus comes.
    Hellen Zille? sure she is a talented ‘objectionist’ yes.

  13. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani

    Thanks for your considered response. I think the ANC has done a very good job in many areas. My concern lies not in its ability or reputation for delivery which has been generally excellent.

    It lies rather in the growing trend of the ANC to ridicule the opposition and bulldoze its agenda through parliament, e.g. scrapping the Scorpions, travelgate, arms scandal etc.

    You cannot even begin to argue there isn’t massive corruption in the ANC. Agreed, there is corruption in every country around the world, but the scale of the corruption here against the size of the GDP and taxpayer base is daunting and limiting the future prospects of the country.

    I don’t believe the ANC is delivering at all on education and security. These are crucial issues. Eskom cost us dearly last year (an ANC planning cock up) and apparently water and sewerage isn’t far behind.

    Its failure in education will cost the country dearly in the not too distant future and the arrogance of the ANC about security: “If you don’t like it here, leave” (Charles Nqakulu), the law (McBride, Zuma, Hlophe, Selebi, Shaik and friends, Winnie Mandela, Yengeni (celebrated to jail and out again by the ANC), Niehaus, Ngqula (R33m thank you) and many many others who seem to think that there’s a law for normal citizens and another one for comrades and their families – a sort of struggle bonus payout for those in favour.

    The flouting of the law by the ANC is quite incredible from Travelgate to the Arms scandal (which touches a whole lot of people, allegedly right up to the great man himself) to SAA (bailed out yet again). Apparently Jacob Zuma has spent a small fortune staying out of court – why not face the charges and be found to be innocent as he claims?

    Finally, (must run), why, if the ANC is so confident of the public’s vote, does it see fit, to call ex members by the most disgusting and derogatory names, to disrupt opposition political meetings and constantly villify anyone who criticises it? If it reigns so supreme, why doesn’t it act as such, instead of the slightly worried ANC that has been all too visible since COPE’s arrival and the growing disgust of the tax paying, law abiding citizenry with the rampant crime, corruption, fraud, cronyism and nepotism that is so obvious for us all to see in every newspaper every single day?

    Be proud by all means. But stand up to your mistakes and be prepared to face the law, not avoid it as so many of your comrades have done and are doing.

    Nkosi Sikelel’ iAfrika

  14. Thanks for the comments – and sorry for the short delay in replying. I was praying for South Africa.

    @Ou Vrou – great comment although I’m a little sad you didn’t get all defensive and say Wonkie is an ANC propaganda machine designed to discredit the DA 😉

    Seriously though, your last point is spot on – the DA’s focus on objecting is branding them as whingers – even while they may be legimately questioning and challenging as the opposition, they are certainly not spending a proportionate amount of time promoting how their policies will make life better for the average South African.

    @ Steve Rogers – some excellent points in your comments as well. The issue now for us is how the DA plays the game to win it. It is politics after all. The DA may certainly be legitimate in questioning dodgy practices but how they do it and balancing this by providing a credible alternative for the masses is the key to win more of their hearts. Otherwise they just look like arm-chair critics of the ANC.

    Wonkie is definitely not suggesting that they stop their objections – but just choose their battles more carefully and show everyone a positive way forward.

    @Bobo – I’m confused.. are you suggesting that the ANC is fabricating corruption allegations on themselves to divert the DA – and this is part of the ANC strategy. Now that would be a seriously Machiavellian approach – perhaps Wonkie has underestimated the power of ANC foresight and thinking.

    I have to say though I can certainly appreciate the view Steve has about the population being apathetic. They mostly appear to follow the ANC on blind faith without questioning anything – that for me is a very dangerous precedent for a fledgling democracy. Sadly, the general public are easily swayed – in every country not just our own.

    Bobo – your last point is exactly the one we’re trying to make and is spot on – the DA need to focus on addressing the needs of the masses and promoting themselves as doing such. As things stand you’re 100% right – they will not gain any traction with the ANC support-base unless they show them what they can do for them!

    @Steve – on bakenshark’s point about Palin – the lesson to be learnt is that of marketing and self-promotion to the masses. If a clown like Palin can draw support of so many through marketing alone I think Zille definitely needs to study her strategy. She needs to figure out how to address and capture the hearts of the mass market.

    @Menti – please don’t knock down Mr Malema. If it weren’t for him we’d have to get rid of half our cartoons ok! 😉 Just curious – what would the DA have to do to convince you that they would provide for your needs? (I mean what do you see are their main holes in their policies etc that keeps you an ANC supporter?)

    @Xolani, Steve – you both make some valid points.. whether or not the ANC have delivered to the best of a government’s ability for the poor of South Africa is less of a point for us than how effectively they’ve positioned themselves as being the best way forward for them. If the DA wants to make an impact they need to position themselves similarly. The catch-22 for the DA is that they will hardly be able to do that credibly until they are actually in power, and to Steve’s point – God alone knows if that day will ever come. Xolani – I think we also need to be careful in writing off the benefits to the poor with corruption in the ANC ranks – they are separate issues. Just because the ANC helps the poor doesn’t give them brownie points to do whatever they please at the expense of the wellbeing of South African citizens – and that means you, me and Steve. If they do wrong, they should definitely be punished and the public should certainly be ready and strong to hold them to account.

  15. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Guys

    I wrote a long message, didn’t put my name and email on it and lost the lot. Wonkie, can’t you create a better system: I just lost 20 minutes, tried to go back – gone. Frustrating to say the least – must run.

  16. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Everyone

    Newsweek published this in February. Xolani: read this carefully (http://www.newsweek.com/id/184783/page/1). It’s really important to digest how people perceive South Africa currently. This is what people all over the world see and therefore assume is correct.

    You can write it off as American ‘counter revolutionary or reactionary’ propaganda if you choose. But maybe the ANC needs to ask itself: how important is the content of this article to educated South Africans of all races who have the money and power to leave the country? And what does that do to the dream of building this country, if they do leave en masse as the article suggests they are?

    Besides talk, what is the ANC going to physically actually do about crime when 2 of the key players (Selebi and Zuma) are themselves suspected of criminal activity? When Winnie Mandela can join parliament despite being a convicted criminal? When so many ANC members are suspended on full pay pending embarrassing allegations of misconduct? When Feinstein (a former ANC member himself) writes an entire book on the arms scandal and the ANC’s alleged squashing of the investigation? When 50 people are murdered daily making it look like we live in some kind of war zone?

    If the ANC addresses just the issue of crime, it will go a long long way to dealing with many of its critics. But does the ANC have the will or the ability to deal with crime when so many of its own members are themselves implicated in crime. How do you expect Helen Zille to keep quiet while Zuma appoints the next head of the NPA which must then decide to prosecute him or not?

    And let’s face it, Zuma will never go to court and so will never clear his name.

    And that leaves our country that much poorer as the Nats did when they had their turn at the wheel.

    From here, it’s a slippery slope which could undo much of the good the ANC has done since 1994.

  17. Steve – really sorry about that man .. we’re using customised version of WordPress as we’re not too technically talented programming-wise. We just conform the the standards already set for the blogging application and don’t know how to change them yet. I’ve lost a couple of messages recently too – it’s irritating to say the least.. all I can say is just always select you entire message and copy it with ctrl-C or something before you click on submit. Painful I know but it works if the internet bombs out at the wrong time etc.

    Thanks for re-entering the comment though – it’s a very good point, particularly for those claiming that the situation is South Africa is simply anti-ANC media hype.

  18. Steve – don’t you know Newsweek, BBC, CNN etc is just another part of the worldwide negative smear campaign to discredit the ANC and everything they have done to date for South Africa. You cannot trust anything you read in any newspaper or magazine that says something against the ANC leadership and the alleged poor state of South Africa in terms of crime etc. They are all working for the dark forces against our presitigious leader Jacob Zuma.. please do not be fooled my friend!

    😉

  19. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Jabu

    I think you’re joking! Kinda scares me that maybe you aren’t! This view is very Mugabiesque. I haven’t screwed up Zimbabwe, everyone else did and there’s a plot us …

    But I think you’re joking … !

  20. Xolani P says:

    @ Steve – There is one thing that you need to understand here.
    If I, XOLANI P, goes to the bank and buy a house, i do that in my personal capacity as XOLANI P. If i fail to service my bond with the bank, i fail in my personal capacity as XOLANI P.
    For the media (nose week included) to now turn around and say the ANC has failed to service its bond, or the ANC did this, the ANC did that, is not only mean, but a very distorted reflection of reality.
    Help yourself Steve, and remove the name ANC from all those corrupt individuals that have been found guilty by a court of law, and see with what you’ll end up sitting!
    The ANC is and has always been very clear on the issue of corruption. We always said and is still saying that anyone who has evidence of corruption must go to the South African Police and lay charges! Thats simple.
    We dont support nor tolerate corruption.
    If Carl Nieuhaus was corrupt and did’nt service his dept, my goodness Steve, we understand that it is CARL NIEUHAUS that did that and not the ANC!

    I agree with you however that corruption in government is a very big concern. But i dont agree if you want to apportion that blame to the ANC. I am stating to you that i am not aware of corruption in the ANC because the ANC is in Luthuli House, Steve.
    Government however, is made up of all South Africans not just ANC members. And as stated earlier, if anyone of these officials (including the plethora of DA, ID, COPE, UDM members that are working in government) is corrupt, take your eveidence to the police, Steve.
    Let me put it to you this way, if you dont report the corruption that you are pointing to now, you are as corrupt as the person doing the crime!

    As for Jacob Zuma, your next president, we continually said that until such time where he has been found guilty by a court of law, the ANC will continue to support him and present him as our presidential candidate.
    The constitution (architechted by this very same ANC), states that all are equal before the law. And this means that Jacob Zuma, irrespective of his societal ranking, must be presumed :’Innocent until proven guilty’.
    You see Steve, one thing about the ANC is that they understand the constitution (the supreme law) because they are the architechts of it. If charges were to be dropped against Zuma, it would be on the basis of the NPA admitting that there is no case against him and on our contention that the charges were trumped-up in the first place.

    If you say you dont “believe the ANC is not delivering at all in terms of education and security” then i must begin to believe that you are a tourist to this country and that you are not a South African. Because all South Africans will be able to tell you about the many schools that were built since the advent of democracy in SA. What about the successes of ABET, the hundreds of schools that got electricity, the hundreds of schools that got running water etc!!
    Safety and Security? The incorporation of the various armed forces (APLA, MK ) into SANDF, the appointment of 15million new police officers, establishment of Community Police forums and paying stipends to police reservists, scrapping of the scorpions (who were a law unto themselves and consisted mainly of former apartheid agents – thus posed a serious security risk). Is this what you would call ” NOT DELIVERING AT ALL?”

    Was the DA not left red in the face last week when the IEC announced that they have a crimininal on their national list? And the the ID having a convicted murderer on theirs?
    Why single out the ANC’s list?
    “Jacob Zuma spending a small fortune staying out of court” – did you really think you can just drag somebody to court with no regard for his constitutional rights? I told you, that we understand the constitution because we architechted it.
    This court battles are about a very important constitutional principle: How to bring a person to court. If you dont know, the ANC will show you how a person must be brought to court.

  21. Steve Rogers says:

    Unfortunately, your members proudly wear your TShirts and shout your party name. I don’t think you can ask the general public to pursue individuals, especially when I don’t perceive the ANC taking any action whatsoever to censure their corrupt members. Rather the lasting impression is that the ANC doesn’t really mind too much. Sorry – that’s the impression. Blame the media if you will, blame the DA, blame the UK, the US, apartheid.

    “The ANC is and has always been very clear on the issue of corruption” I don’t think it has, sorry. Everything I read seems to support it. Maybe I’m reading the wrong newspapers and websites.

    I don’t personally have evidence of any corruption – I’m simply saying I don’t think that the image of the ANC is of a “we don’t tolerate corruption” type.

    Jacob Zuma: this subject has been beaten to death. Let’s leave it there. I’m pretty resigned to what’s going to happen on that front. Bygones. But we will pay for it. I hope I’m wrong. As for the charges being trumped up: so you’re telling me with a straight face, hand on heart, that Jacob Zuma and a whole lot of senior ANC members didn’t get any undue benefits from the arms deal? Sorry, I just don’t believe that.

    As to the constitution: I seem to remember that being formed under CODESA and it wasn’t just an ANC present to the country. It was the result of a hard slog by a lot of dedicated South Africans of all races, creeds and political persuasions. Be careful to assume that the political dispensation as it exists today is only an ANC creation. And the extensive taxes I pay assist the ANC to carry out its mandate which now includes supporting I believe 12m South Africans who could conceivably begin to assume that getting money from government is their right and not their privilege. If high earning/high asset South Africans carry on leaving the country as they are, who’s going to pay for this in future?

    Security: you can employ 15m policemen. And then? The criminal chaos continues unabated or are you telling me it could be far worse and we should be grateful?

    DA’s red face: I don’t care which politician gets caught from which party. If you get caught, you should be gone. But politicians have an extraordinary ability to re-invent themselves: e.g. Boesak, Marais, Kortbroek etc.

    I enjoy your passion Xolani, but I think you’re a little too zealously defensive of the ANC. It’s not a big jump from there to the Zanu PF / Nationalist viewpoint that says if you’re not for us, you’re against us and therefore bad.

    Press censorship isn’t far away. I hope I’m wrong on all of the above and I wish Zuma well as President. God knows, we need real leadership from somewhere, anywhere.

  22. You see Steve, the general public, unlike yourself, is infact pursuing individuals. The evidence for this lies in their overwhelming support for the ANC and what it stands for. They are quite able to differentiate between a spade and and fork. They know that if Carl Nieuhaus didnt pay his debt, it can hardly be put on the ANC’s doorstep.
    Our ELECTION MANIFESTO (you are indeed reading wrong newspapers and websites) states that we are serious about clean governance, and to get rid of corrupt officials in government. That is what we’ve been saying on every single platform that we have addressed thus far. Or are you practicing selective listening? If not, why have you missed out on Zuma’s continued insistence on “OUR LAWS MUST BITE?”, and that we need to review the criminal justice aparatus in order to make sure that criminals feel the pinch?

    Why are the millions that will be voting Zuma into the union buildings next month not left with a “lasting impression that the ANC doesnt really mind too much?” Or are all these millions of people, including myself, apathetic?
    It is a fact that WE DONT TOLERATE CORRUPTION.
    Read our manifesto, not noseweek, please. And i am stating it to you “with a straight face, hand on the heart,” that if you have evidence that “Jacob Zuma and a whole lot of senior ANC members got undue benefits from the arms deal”, bring that evidence to the South African Police!
    We cant operate on the basis of what you believe or not believe, Steve. If you come up with an accusation, how about substantiating it with evidence?
    This is what Mbeki, Zuma and everybody in the ANC have been saying all along, Steve. Bring new evidence and we will gladly open the investigation into the armsdeal!
    I am the one person who really appreciates the roles that everybody has played in contributing to our current political dispensation. Because apartheid was hell, it was inhumane. But we know that liberation came to SA under the umbrella of the ANC. And we know that there were all sorts of experts, even international figures, the UN, IMF, World Bank specialists etc involved in the constitution making process. But all of them participated in that process on the invitation of the African National Congress – hence the correct interpretaion that ANC is the architects of it. The constitution was developed under a sitting ANC government, Act 108 of 1996. The ANC was already two years in government by the time the constitution was developed, Steve.
    With due recognition to all other roleplayers, but the ANC is indeed the architect of our constitution AND the current political dispensation.

    “The highearning/high asset South Africans that carry on leaving the country” are at liberty to go and live at any destination of their choice, Steve.
    But i know about dozens of “high earning/high asset South African” black people that are very proud to be in SA and actively building their country, and to make it even worse, they will be voting ANC!.
    As far as security and education is concerned, I have you on record for saying ” the ANC has not delivered at all”, Steve.
    I am not as you say “too zealously defensive of the ANC”, Steve. The ANC itself has repeatedly stated that it acknowledges the need to speed up change, and that much more still need to be done. But there is a difference between constructive critisism, and being “diagnosed with acute objectionitis”, such as yourself and the madam.

  23. Xolani P says:

    The point that we are trying to make Steve, is that if Hellen is going to continue with her negative campaigning (which is definitly not helping the DA), she will be helping the ANC to govern until Jesus comes.
    People know nothing about the DA’s policies around the issue of land, what are they offering apartheids black victims in terms of adressing inequality, poverty, rural development etc. We are hungry to hear what she has to offer to our people. But we dont hear that from her mouth.
    Its just, Zuma here, Zuma there!
    And this will not help her win the election. People have made up their minds about Zuma, Steve. They gonna vote for him. The madam should offer alternatives very drastically if she even hope to get somewhere in this election.
    And COPE is also a real threat for the DA, not the ANC. It might even replace the DA as the official opposition. So objectionitis is out for now!

  24. Hi Mphepo

    My responses below yours in quote marks:
    “… if Carl Nieuhaus didnt pay his debt, it can hardly be put on the ANC’s doorstep …”
    The ANC knew he was corrupt and still appointed him. That’s what damages your reputation with thinking South Africans. Niehaus is not relevant – it’s the fact that the ANC knew and did nothing about it and instead of acknowledging its mistake, goes on a campaign to defend itself which further confirms our (my) suspicions.

    “… Zuma’s continued insistence on “OUR LAWS MUST BITE?”…”
    I wait with eager expectation that the ANC actually means it. When the number of people dying in the country comes down from the currently frightening 50 per day, I’ll take your point. But crime has been an issue for years and years with no change and a constant attempt by the ANC to prevent figures being published on time.

    “ …Why are the millions that will be voting Zuma … “
    This is a tough one: The ANC deserves immense respect for its role in the defeat of apartheid and the Nats. Hundreds of people died in the name of the cause, some by disgusting methods of torture or straight assassination. Others gave up years if not decades of their lives in jail. If I was black, I too would have enormous loyalty for the ANC. I think this is why so many people will vote ANC. 15 years later, the ANC has used this power to ensure that the voices of opposition parties are tainted by allegations of racism, imperialism, counter revolutionary etc etc. But if I’m poor, unemployed and living in a shack 15 years on, how many more years before I realise that there is no link between voting ANC and the quality of my life?

    “ … It is a fact that WE DONT TOLERATE CORRUPTION …”
    Sorry Mphepo, how can you write this with a straight face? Take just yesterday’s Star headlines: the SABC board is a mess. Why? The ANC has refused entry to the Dalai Lama. Why? Jay Naidoo asks if we’ve sold our foreign policy to the Chinese. Why? Hogan, your own Minister has criticised government’s position. Why? (is she also reactionary or just able to think for herself?) Four West Rand policemen have been implicated in drug peddling, 3 have confessed to already having criminal records. Judge Hlophe has gagged a family whose daughter was allegedly given HIV at a government hospital – incompetence followed by cover up. Cabinet is embarrassed by having incorrectly criticised SAA who have paid off Ngqula a massive R33m. Shaik’s parole: questionable. Government and business basically ignore a cartel in pre cast concrete products.

    Our newspapers are littered with evidence of corruption and incompetence every single day and this continuous flow of bad news seeps into the consciousness of South Africans who bother to read. But let’s see if Zuma (the accused himself) a. gets off his court case (probably will) and b. deals with crime.

    “…evidence … bring it forward …” Mphepo, I’m a businessman, not a politician. I’m not going to run around searching for evidence. But I have read Feinstein’s book and it doesn’t look good. And he was an ANC member himself. In fact, it appears to stink from here to England and France.

    Keep yourself well Mphepo. I’d like to take this dialogue up again at the end of Zuma’s second term when the ANC will be motivating a third term for him “in the national interest”.

    I pray for the retention of our democracy in these dangerous times. The watershed is here on April 22.

  25. Hi Xolani

    I completely agree with you. I think the DA has unfortunately painted itself into a corner where some people readily listen and most don’t. This is bad for the DA and bad for democracy.

    We need a vibrant democracy where the ruling party (the ANC currently) is held to account by opposition parties.

    We don’t need a one party state who believes it is their right to govern forever and can, without apology, call opposition members “snakes” and “dogs”, “reactionary” or “counter revolutionary”. Show me one successful one party state anywhere in the world. The ANC must grow up into a tolerant political party, not a besieged organisation fighting off the rest.

    Power corrupts. It’s simple – you need checks and balances in every organisation and country. If one person in a business signs the cheques, that power leads to theft. It takes 2 or 3 powerful parties to make a thriving country. The splintered opposition needs urgent self review for the sake of our democracy.

    All best.

    Steve

  26. Steve – you’re the man! Thanks for your very well-put comment. I am an ANC supporter but I do not agree with some of the things they are doing now – it has to stop and the dirt from the party cleaned out before it is too late.

  27. Hi Jabu

    Thanks for your comments. It’s not rocket science is it?

    The ANC knows where the corruption lies and it knows that the arms scandal is one of the most important starting points. But, oops, that might link a whole lotta people together which would be a little embarrassing and inconvenient. So let’s brush it under the carpet and tell the country we’ll be hard on corruption … in future!

    We need a new ‘post 94’ TRC. And I don’t mind if the people get off as long as we know who and as long as they can’t serve in future political positions again.

  28. Haha… another TRC – not a bad idea although I think we need to make an example of these people now! They are giving the ANC a bad name and sooner or later the masses will start recognising that the prestigious ANC collective as Mphepo rightly puts it, is made up of some suspect individuals that are damaging the power of the collective as a whole.

  29. Steve Rogers says:

    To my friends the supporters of the ANC. As I find evidence of my views, I will post it here. If you’ve left this blog for greener pastures, that’s a pity, we need the dialogue. For those, still here, Xolani especially, please read the article at this link: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123280&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

    The Dalai Lama is a friend of Nelson Mandela, whose silence is recent times is very worrying. Does Nelson Mandela support Trevor Manuel’s view of the Dalai Lama? I doubt it. But where’s Nelson Mandela’s spokesperson?

  30. Quite a dramatic change of tune there Steve; form one that originally apportioned the Nieuhaus corruption to the ANC, to one that now says “the ANC at least knew he (Carl) was corrupt”, isnt it Steve?

    Now, where will you find a more clearer example of a concience distortion of fact to advance political ends as in Steve’s change of tune? Now, where will you find a more clearer example of what we have been saying all along that the media and opposition is in fact biased and are pedling untruths and smear campaigns.
    Is it because Steve thinks the population is APATHETIC? Well, let me tell you we are definitely not APATHETIC.
    We live in the shacks and squatter camps of this country, we live on the grassroots, not in some glass castle like the “high earn/high asset white South Africans that carry on leaving the country”. We have our ears and feet firmly on the ground, Steve.
    This is why we are able to tell you that there is in fact a very real, definite “link between voting ANC and the quality of our lives’.

    We know that our country is amongst the few in the world that releases crime statistics on a six monthly basis, unlike trends in the rest of the world to release these statistics on a two-yearly basis.
    Crime statistics in terms of the law should actually be released on a yearly basis in South Africa but that the ministry of Safety and Security, out of courtesy releases it six monthly? Since the last statistics were released during September last year, the new statistics are only due in September 2009.
    Now, what do you mean by ” …a constant attempt by the ANC to prevent figures being published on time?”
    The statistics will be released at a date and time as determined by the Minister, and the minister alone, Steve. We are not going to feed into your huge appetite for pre- election objectionitis.
    If the Minister releases the statistics now before the elections and they are bad/negative, you will make a noise and say: “look how the ANC has failed us in terms of crime”.
    If those very statistics are Good/positive you will also make a noise and say: “the ANC is just releasing it now before the elections because they want to draw votes” or you will say: ” the statistics have been manupilated”. So let us allow the minister to do his work please and stop wanting to score cheap political points.

    I am failing to see the link between your quoted “Star Headlines” and ANC corruption. Or are you saying the SABC board is an ANC board? or the four West Rand policemen are ANC policemen?

    I am once again posing the challenge to YOU that the corruption that you so passionately mention, and the “our newspapers are liitered with EVIDENCE of corrupion every single day”, why are they, INCLUDING YOURSELF, not taking these EVIDENCE to the police Steve? Or are you perhaps implicated?
    Because if I know about corruption, I will definitely report it to the police! Then why dont you!
    Are you saying that corruption should only be reported to the police by politicians and not businessmen?
    You are making serious allegations about corruption but then say, “Im not going to run around searching for evidence.” Which means you are just extracting all these anti ANC sentiments from these various sources and are just shamelessly peddling them without verification?
    Is that an admission that you are also just sucking all these allegations from your thumb? He who alleges, should prove – remember?

    Its not about what you believe or not Steve, how about sustantiating your accusations with evidence? How about taking that evidence to the police? Then you would be making yourself usefull to your country and its people. But to just sit and nag, moaning and growning like bear with a sore foot from morning till night will not give you votes!

    A third term for Zuma? Wasnt the RSA constitution architected by the ANC? Im sure they understand it better than anyone, including yourself. What is The Star telling you about the reasons why Mbeki was toppled at Polokwane? Or did they omit to tell you that it was for this very same reason? See? Why you should stop quoting the Star?
    You can list all these accusations and many more until you’re blue in the face Steve, but to come forward with the evidence and reporting it to the police is something else!
    And until such time you present the evidence and report it to the police, will you will just be remebered as another Objectionists, or no Cockcroach, or was it poisonous snake, or anti-revolutionary?
    By the way, recent research shows that JZ’s poularity is growing! Dont miss out, Steve.

  31. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Mphepo

    I hear you – let’s not believe all that we hear or read. Fair enough, but as one of millions of South Africans who do not spend that much (any?) time personally checking the veracity of every article, one tends to get an opinion from reading the media over time. So, if the ANC is embroiled in the arms scandal as it is, you read about it for the first time and you don’t have much of an opinion. Then you hear about it again on radio, on TV, then books are published about it and it doesn’t seem to go away. Over a long period of time, you establish a view of something from the media, not from one article but from many in many different media and from many different conversations.

    I assume for example if the ANC believed that Feinstein was defaming them and their office bearers in his book “After the Party”, then they would have sued him. But, as far as I’m aware they didn’t. Does this mean the book is laughably inaccurate so therefore worth ignoring or does it mean that the book is correct in its allegations and the ANC is keeping quiet, hoping it will go away?

    You can’t blame me for gaining opinions from the media. This doesn’t of course mean the ANC should pursue Zanu PF’s option which is to ban all independent media.

    What it does mean though is that the ANC needs to bring things to conclusion so that people can put things behind them. We still wait for finality on issues involving Jacob Zuma, McBride, Selebi, Hlophi and others. These are office bearers in crucial jobs and yet all of them are surrounded by intrigue which engenders no confidence in the ANC’s view that they intend to fight corruption.

    But I take your point on checking the facts.

    Pls take mine and see to it that suspected criminals are a. charged (the NPA’s responsibility) and b. found innocent or guilty so that we can move on from this tedious period of ANC led politics in South Africa which is incurring untold damage to our international reputation.

    It is nauseating to the core to read the papers to discover how various people again and again have slipped out of court on technicalities, police evidence cock ups and legal loopholes.

  32. Xolani P says:

    My friend, Steve.
    As you find evidence of your corruption allegations, dont post it here please!!! We are afraid to be found guilty in the court of public opinion.

    Because we, the supporters of the ANC believe that corruption must be dealt with seriously and by the appropriate agencies, not Wonkie.
    So how about taking such ‘evidence’ to the Police please? That is if you are so serious about corruption as you would want us to believe!
    Dont you agree that corruption should be dealt with by the appropriate Constitutional Agencies?
    We ANC supporters respect the rule of law, and we dont believe in finding a person guilty on the “court of public opinion”.
    God knows what court would take you serious with what you call “evidence” from the internet and the Star!

  33. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani

    We’re getting a bit stuck on this evidence thing. My point above remains the same. Politics is as much about the facts as it is about perception. In fact, one could argue, it is more about perception than the facts.

    Helen Zille is an objectionist. I either agree or disagree. But what is she actually? Jacob Zuma is innocent or guilty. The NPA apparently is likely to drop charges today. Does that mean he is innocent as a fact? How many South Africans will ever believe he is squeaky clean when no court case has ever been held, when no enquiry into the arms deal has ever been convened (the two are inextricably linked)?

    Your evidence mantra is a clever one and probably rings well with those disposed to its message.

    I look forward to retiring one day when I will have the time to do this subject justice, when I can collect and dissect the evidence for a particular view … and present it to the police.

    Keep yourself well Xolani, I think we have done this column to death now.

    Signing off

  34. @ Steve, I agree that one tends to get an opinion from reading the media over time. And you are quite spot on with your contention that, over a long period of time, you establish a view of something from the media… Granted, and i agree 100%.
    You are entitled to your own opinion Steve, that is what the ANC fought for, and guarantees to every citizen in SA.
    You can read Feinsteins book, its a great book by the way. Ive also read it. And i will encourage people to read the book, we must hear the different angles and viewpoints.
    Im not saying that there is nothing wrong with the arms deals Steve. That would be very naive.

    However it is important that we respect each others constitutiuonal rights and not just jump to conclusions. To date, there are three different investigations being undertaken into the arms deal at the current moment. The ANC said it would await the outcome of its own investigation and the one of the Office of the Public Protector before deciding on the matter. This would inform the appointment of a Commision of Investigation into the arms deal, its term of reference, its scope etc.
    The problem with the media Steve, is that they dont want to wait for due process to unfold but just grab anything that moves in the ANC and create news (negative) from it (business generation).
    We cannot so shamelessly just walk over the constitutional rights of our citizens only because so and so mentioned their names in some deal or the other, and find people guilty in the court of public opinion.
    We have to do proper investigations and wait for these investigations to be concluded, and not to pre empt them.
    I’ve read “After the party”, and i can tell you that it surely is just a point of view of somebody who has the right to his opinion! Government cant act on that!
    So many invitations were extended to people and parties to bring evidence of corruption to the relevant authorities. We are a constitutional democracy, we do things through the proper mechanisms and constitutional bodies/agencies.
    I dont blame you for gaining opinions from the media, Steve. But it should be treated as informative/enrichmment only – you cant based decisions that would affect an entire nation on a mere media report! And why the constant reference to Zanu PF? There is absolutely no comparison between the current ANC and Zanu PF.
    And it is the ANC that faught for and delivered media freedom to SA. We realised as a party that the media sometimes can be very ruthless and defaming of a persons constitutional rights. And the media ombudsman is not really very effective in ensuring accountability in terms of malicious media reporting. Hence our resolution at the Polokwane Policy conference that there is a need to establish a media tribunal, to make the media to account for what they report. There are of cause a lot of sentiments around this move and the accusation that it will negatively impact on free speach etc. Hence the delay in its implimentation so that the matter can be further exploited and researched first.
    But the media is a very real big problem.

    Why do you put names such as judge Hlophe, Mc Bride etc next to the ANC’s? They are surely not ANC deployees, and therefore if they are embroiled in any corrupt allegation, it is not supposed to “engender no confidence in the ANC’s view that they tend to fight corruption”

    I take your point in terms of the apprehending and sentencing of corrupt people, Steve.
    But we must wait for due process to conclude, we cannot just find people guilty in the court of public opinion, and by so doing DEFAME a person.
    That is something that the ANC will protect with its life, even if it gives you the impression that we are soft on corruption – which is of course not the case.

  35. Xolani P says:

    Steve, my friend, If charges against Zuma are to be dropped today, it will be on the basis of the NPA NOT HAVING A CASE AGAINST THE MAN. A person is innocent until proven guilty, so if he was not proven guilty (in terms of the constitution), then it means that such a person is in fact ‘Squeaky clean!!’

    It is not an enquiry into the arms deal that will decides whether a person is guilty or not, Steve. It is only a court of law that can do that.

    Keep well, Steve, i enjoyed you passion.
    Just put it to use in the ANC, please!

  36. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani and Mphepo

    This has been a good conversation. We all start from our own points of view which in South Africa are coloured by our upbringing, race, culture, economic level, language, religion and exposure to different views. We’ve had different views over the last few days and I’ve certainly learnt a thing or two.

    I do believe, as Malema demonstrated over the weekend in Oranje, that we need to debate more across the divides of our country. I socialise primarily with white people and there is a deep level of frustration and angst among many white people that the ANC is determined to stay in power at all costs and will ensure that its office bearers will be able to avoid court when they do wrong simply by belonging to the ANC.

    For example Yengeni spent a pathetically short time behind bars for a crime for which he was found guilty.

    The ANC has also endorsed Winnie Mandela’s presence on its party list and she too is a convicted criminal.

    If the arms scandal is never investigated, we will assume that big business (BAE and friends) and various politicians have effected a good cover up … again. If is investigated as it should be, I will watch with great interest, as I’m sure Feinstein and many others will too.

    You’re suggesting to me that I am relying on media reports for the ‘truth’. I take your point. But I’ve never seen an ANC poster for a meeting in my suburb (Kyalami) and yet I’ve seen many for the DA and even know who the DA rep is locally.

    As long as political parties campaign along racial lines, the great divides will not be addressed.

    But I will open my ears to listen more carefully to the message of the ANC and I will watch your President’s immediate decisions after 22 April with much interest.

    Thanks. All best.

  37. Xolani P says:

    @ Steve, You say you socialise primarily with white people. Why does your primarily white social circles think “the ANC is determined to stay in power at all cost…?”
    I would like to know what informs this thinking of theirs?
    The constitution clearly states only two terms for a sitting president. And the ANC is currently (ligitimately) governing with a two thirds majority, remember Steve?
    So if South Africans in this elections, again give the ANC an overwhelming majority vote, how can this be interpreted as the “ANC WANT TO STAY IN POWER AT ALL COST?”
    Look at the world around you Steve and tell me about a country where a ruling party managed to get two thirds of the vote! This speaks of public confidence in the party! How can this be seen as wanting to stay in power at all costs?
    I think the problem lies with the thinking of your “white friends”, Steve. And im saying this respectfully, with not a single thread of hatred or anything.
    It is unfair AND WRONG to say the “ANC will ensure that its office bearers will be able to avoid court when they do wrong.”
    You know, this “avoid court” phrase was developed by the media and popularised by Helen. Now everybody is just singing the “avoid court” song!
    Who avoided court and when?
    There are specific and prescribed ways (prescribed by the constitution) about how to bring a person to court, Steve. And if the prosecuting authorities are having a disregard for constitutional prescripts, then we must show them that we understand the constitution better than themselves!
    How can you first charge a person, then investigate later? How can you charge a person without even taking representations from him? These are constitutional issues, Steve. We must seek recourse on these matters, it can never be called “avoid court”.
    The media usually takes an issue and thow it into the public domain for the opposition to grab! They then start drumming it up by making sure it remains in the public discussion. They pre clude on decisions, they dont wait for beaurocratic process/investigation to conclude. They defame certain people. They peddle untruths, myths, and sometimes blatant lies!
    How can you say a person is avoiding court, when these very same battles are being fought right inside court! These propaganda and defamation campaigns of the media must stop, Steve.
    Yengeni got parole, Steve. South African law provides for parole under certain conditions. Parole is being administrated by a department called correctional services. The ANC has got nothing to do with that. Take your requests for review of his parole to that Department’s independent Review Boards, they might listen to you and review Yengeni’s parole. The ANC is in Luthuli House, not in some Correctional Centre.
    The IEC has deemed fit to allow Winnie Mandela on the ANC list. This is because of a specific reason. The IEC Act states that a person who were convicted of a criminal offence and who have spend more than 12 months in prison, cannot be allowed to be in parliament. The matter was brought before the IEC and the IEC decided to allow Winnie Mandela on the list because she has not spend anytime in jail but got a suspended sentence. The freedom front is taking the matter to court, and i appeal once again to you and your white friends to allow this process to conclude, Steve!
    Respect the courts, respect the process. Wait for the outcome. Thats simple.
    Stop this media circus please.

  38. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani
    I mentioned the W word. My mistake. You can’t generalise about black or white social circles. What’s going on in white circles in Bloemfontein may be different to what’s going on in white circles in De Aar. Let’s stick to my opinion, for what little it’s worth.

    Your point: “… tell me about a country where a ruling party managed to get two thirds of the vote …”
    Xolani! Show me a government anywhere in the world that hasn’t gone on to abuse its two thirds majority with constitution tinkering and president-for-life-thanks-I’ll-take-the-money/land-too corruption. Zimbabwe and the ANC’s quiet diplomacy, yeah, right.

    That’s why I fear a two thirds majority: it is very likely to end in a one party state, dictatorship and the destruction of the social and economic fibre of our country. We need a vibrant democracy with 2-4 strong parties, not one all powerful party and a fractured opposition. It simply doesn’t work unless you know of an example where it did. Do you?

    The courts: I hear your points. Unfortunately, I don’t agree. All political parties and people with lots of money will use lawyers to stay out of court. Lawyers are paid to find methods to postpone the matter, introduce technicalities, obfuscate and prevaricate until eventually either one of the opposing parties runs out of cash, a key individual dies or an out of court settlement is reached. Hence the secret meetings taking place this week.

    The media: yes, of course the media are going to jump on the ANC or any person or organisation that offers them a juicy story. Get used to it, it happens all over the world all the time. You’re not victims, your members and supporters just provide such excellent material, again and again.

    In summary, power corrupts, absolute power (a two thirds or more majority) will corrupt a ruling party absolutely over the next 20 years thereafter.

    I would love to be proven wrong as South Africa has it all from Mandela to van Riebeeck, tourism, resources, a beautiful climate and country, an incredible history, incredible people of all races, cultures and creeds, a cosmopolitan feel, wide open spaces and animals, agriculture, art, music, sport, you name it.

    So go for it ANC, let’s see you do it and prove the media, the critics, the opposition, history and many South Africans wrong: a two thirds majority won’t lead to a one party state and a slow decline to nothing like Zimbabwe.

  39. @Steve – I am not going to prove you wrong on anything, and it is not my intention to do so since you have the right to your own opinion. But my observation is that you are just blatantly anti ANC, and that is mildly put. Again, its your right to feel so.
    You just jump from the one subject to the other in a non-stop fashion, and the more we explain certain processes to you, the more you draw from your juicy newspaper stockpile.
    My problem with this is that you list these issues so passionately as if you have witnessed them happening. Have you ever paused for one moment and just thought that what you are actually doing is plagiarism! You are just doing direct quotations from someone elses reporting without giving thought to it. You are just swallowing whatever juicy anti ANC story you come accross in the news papers and just shamelessly peddle it without reservation or consideration!
    This demonstrates your addictive reliance on newspapers as your only source of information. And judged by the intensity and severity of your anti ANC sentiments, it is not hard for anyone to guess what newspapers these are that you are reading – because there are only a few of them, and we know them by the name, and we know who buys them. We even know who the editors are!
    My second problem with you is your inability to acknowledge your wrong perception on some of the matters that we have discussed here. You rather continue to draw from your newspaper arsenal. We have explained many issues here on wich you were clearly misguided by Nose Week namely, Crime statistics, the ANC’ list, Parole, etc.
    You are just cynical, thats all.
    And as a white person that “socialises primariliy with white people” (we are not generalising, these were your direct words), it is really sickening to see so much anti black sentiment at this day and age in SA.
    Your contention that under the ANC SA will slowly drift towards a situation like what is going on in Zimbabwe, is just one example of your passionate hatred of the ANC only because it is a black government.
    It doesnt matter what good it does, you will just never be able to acknowledge that, face it.
    The point is: The ANC is governing this country on an overwhelming two thirds majority mandate. THIS SPEAKS OF PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THE PARTY – FACT. There is thus no basis for your white “fears” that the ANC wants to govern at all costs. This is a ligitimate mandate, unlike the coalition mandate in the Western Cape. This not a win by a small margin, it is a decisive win, an overwhelming majority mandate given by SA voters.
    You can try and discredit this, but it will not change this real fact that a two thirds majority, speaks of overwhelming public confidence in the party. And we are not going to beg you to endorse or recognise the ANC government.
    You unfortunately find yourself in a small group of post -apartheid disgruntle minorities, that are refusing to accept that SA has changed, and changed for the good.
    Im sure you (or a relative) are one of those white farmers that has lost a farm or two in Zimbabwe, hence your constant nagging about ZANU PF. This discussion is about SA, not Zimbabwe. And if you talk about quite diplomacy, then you are indeed living in the past since the Zimbabwe issue has been resolved (by quite diplomacy) and belong to the dustbin of history. If you are still disgrutled about your farm/ or that of your uncle, make peace with the fact that the land belongs to all and not just a few privilleged whites. SA is applying a more moderate approach, but we have resolved at Polokwane that the willing buyer – willing seller is not working and we need to speed up land redistribution. And hell knows it will happen, the land cannot belongs to a privilleged few only. This is what the DA is (interestingly) very silent on, and we know why!
    You accuse the ANC of wanting to flout the constitution but when the very same ANC ask you to respect the constitution, you say “i dont aggree” (your reference to the courts). You are mixed up, seriously mixed up and you have no understanding of how government fuctions.
    You are the only one that “fear ” the ANC when the millions of fellow South Africans demonstrates A DEFINITE CONFIDENCE in it. Is this not telling you something about yourself? You are the media, you talk about things that hasnt’ happen. You pre clude on things. We cannot condemn a party because your sceptical mind says this of that will happen in twenty years time? So what you are saying thus cant be relevant! You cant blame the ANC now for something that hasnt happened at all!! There are more than a 100 registered political parties in SA, IF THE VOTERS ARE NOT VOTING FOR THEM, for obvious reasons, then there is something wrong with them, not the ANC.
    If all South Africans vote for the ANC tommorow, how can you blame the ANC? It demonstrates their confidence in the party!
    If you dont have confidence in the ANC, we understand your background.

  40. Steve Rogers says:

    Bobo

    1. I’m not anti ANC. I’m anti where I think it might be going based on what I read (media), hear (conversations) and see (potholes, crime, raw sewerage, broken traffic lights, taxis ignoring the law).

    2. I take your point on the media. We all need to investigate what we read if we have the time, interest and resources.

    3. I last read Nose Week years ago. In fact, I’ve read about 4 copies in my entire life. My views are drawn from conversations, The Weekender, The Star, the Sunday Times, the Sunday Independent, the Mail & Guardian, PoliticsWeb, the news on SAFM, 702 and Highveld and books. Which media would you prefer me to watch/read or listen to?

    4. Anti Black? Now you’re pushing the barriers. Your accusations disgust me. My opinions have nothing to do with race. When I voted PFP in the old days, was I anti white? Don’t make stupid allegations!

    5. I’m not in a “small group of disgruntled post apartheid minorities”. I am thrilled that change came in ’94. Why do you think I came home in 1993? Because I’m a racist? Wake up man and improve your debating tactics (the race card … again) and knowledge of white people who haven’t abandoned the country!

    6. I have no relatives in Zimbabwe. Your remarks are silly, opportunistic and inflammatory.

    7. The land does not belong to all. It can’t physically belong to all. Communism doesn’t work. Ask around. But, if you speak for the ANC, as you appear to, your views do confirm the ANC intends to follow Zanu PF’s model in taking the land regardless, interesting Bobo, thanks for confirming what many suspect will happen.

    8. “The land cannot belong to the few”: Why not? It does in most countries. More communism claptrap.

    9. “If you don’t have confidence in the ANC, we understand your background” More claptrap: If you don’t support the ANC, you must be stupid or racist? Rubbish man. It’s a democracy, people can vote for anybody they like without having a particular “background”.

    Let’s summarise: Race has NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING! Get rid of the race card, it’s tedious and a hollow argument that debilitates serious debate/argument between members of different races. Each time, the race card is drawn, debate dies and people withdraw.

    Neither the DA, nor the ANC are above public criticism. Once they are, we’re in deep trouble. Ask Chinese, Tibetan, Zimbabwean, Russian dissidents, black people under apartheid etc.

  41. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Bobo

    Here’s an example of where my opinions originate: try this from PoliticsWeb: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123672&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

    Note how Paul is also abused by the ANC.

    Think, Bobo, think hard about accusing your fellow citizens of racism and all the usual ANC knee jerk reactions to criticism.

    Do you have a cogent answer to Paul’s article?

  42. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Bobo

    I don’t have to read just anti ANC articles either. Jeremy Cronin’s article (here: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123701&sn=Marketingweb%20detail) adds an interesting perspective to the mis-managed Dalai Lama affair.

  43. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Bobo

    Another article about Bishop Tutu’s comments on eTV. He criticised the ANC as well, so does that make him a racist too? See it here: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123642&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

  44. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Bobo

    This is so much fun. I suppose this article was made up by the DA. I suppose all the reports about the disgusting behaviour of VIP cops are ALL just racist, anti ANC rumours. See here: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123700&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

  45. Steve Rogers says:

    As has been pointed out to me, my arguments may not have been particularly cogent over the period of this blog, driven by passion for the country and for the rule of law, not the rule of ANC propoganda.

    Doron Isaacs from UCT wrote an article today in PoliticsWeb which makes the points that need to be made with supporting evidence and history.

    For those who are open to alternative views: Pls read it here: http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=123912&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

  46. Xolani P says:

    @ Steve. If your arguments are driven by your “passion for the country and the rule of law”:
    This was your response on my plea that you should allow the courts to do their work, to respect the constitution, and not to preclude on matters that are subjudicae.This was your response:
    1) “The courts: I hear your points. Unfortunately, I don’t agree. All political parties and people with lots of money will use lawyers to stay out of court. Lawyers are paid to find methods to postpone the matter, introduce technicalities, obfuscate and prevaricate until eventually either one of the opposing parties runs out of cash, a key individual dies or an out of court settlement is reached. Hence the secret meetings taking place this week.”

  47. Xolani P says:

    @ Steve. You said “the ANC wants to stay in power at all costs.”; “the ANC has not DELIVERED AT ALL in education and safety & security”; ” Yengeni spent a pathetically short time in prison”; “Winnie Mandela on the ANC’s list”; ” ANC will ensure that their office bearers AVOID COURT and wont stand trial”; “the ANC deliberatly delays the release of crime figures”; etc.

    We have answered you on all these issues. We endeavoured to explain to you how these processes are working, and how these issues were dealt with through processes of constitutional dictates, namely the courts, and or other departmental procedures.
    You took names of individuals that are not even deployees of the ANC and you apportioned the blame for their corrupt activities on the ANC as a party. These individuals includes, the two West Rand Policeman, Judge Hlope, Mc Bride, etc.
    Steve, honestly my brother face it, are you not just anti ANC? You just refuse to understand that all of these have got nothing to do with the ANC.
    Your judgement becomes so clouded by your anti ANC feelings that you are unable to differentiate between a spade and a fork.
    You just screen any source of information you come accross and grab any Anti ANC headline and peddle it unceremoniously.
    You cannot just do that Steve, thats wrong. You cannot just preach “respect for country and the rule of law” when it suits you. But when it is expected of you to respect the rule of law in instances such as the case against Zuma, Winnie Mandela’s name on the ANC list, Yengeni’s parole etc, then you tend to be dismissive of the very same principle (respect for rule of law).
    This is not arguing fairly Steve. The basis from which we argue must be level, it must be the same.
    Otherwise we might as well end the discussion right here.

  48. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani

    Good to hear from you again.

    If I could believe that the legal processes of South Africa were free of political influence, I’d relax. I don’t think they are. Not that that’s surprising. Legal processes across the world are influenced by powerful lobbies and organisations.

    In South Africa, the media seem saturated with ‘crime’ stories and we kill each other at a frightening rate, you must agree. Now, a few people on this blog have suggested an anti ANC plot by “minorities”.

    Maybe it looks like that. But Xolani, the role of the opposition is to keep the heat up on the ruling party. Look how the ANC tried to topple the DA in Cape Town when it lost control there.

    To suggest that Helen back off as Zuma apparently (that word for Bobo, I didn’t personally hear Mr Zuma actually say those words, so if this is also just a rumour, I apologise), to suggest Helen back off is to ask the official opposition and the media not to do their jobs: to follow up on every whiff of a problem in the public interest. It’s certainly not in my interest for Mr Ngqula to whip a quick R33m out of SAA.

    Our brave new democracy should thank God for the DA’s tenacity. It keeps the ruling party on its toes.

    Do you think there would be more or less corruption if there was no official opposition? Hopefully the answer to that question in any country is obvious.

    Society’s success rests on the many checks and balances in every aspect: between parent and child, headmaster and teacher, policeman and citizen, government and opposition.

    To wish otherwise is to forego democracy.

    For the ANC to complain about excessive anti ANC rhetoric is its right.

    But, Xolani, I’m not anti ANC.

    If Jacob Zuma becomes President and just deals with crime and corruption, I’ll be thrilled and the opposition will lose a major plank of its criticism of government. If the ANC goes on to address the weaknesses in the education system to slow down the terrible flood of dependents on state handouts (based on my and my fellow citizens’ tax payments), then we can truly build this great country.

    I would prefer Jacob Zuma to be found innocent in a court of law as against a series of secret meetings which appear to be more about how to tell the public about a decision already taken without damaging the ANC’s reputation too much.

    But even that is not relevant if the ANC runs a government that deals with crime and corruption and ensures the functional education and health of our people. Most thinking South Africans will probably forget about Zuma’s past if he and the ANC builds a great present and future.

    Happy voting Xolani. It’s been a good conversation except for Bobo’s racism accusation. That was bloody annoying.

    All best.

  49. Xolani P says:

    Great discussion Steve. Keep well. Nice weekend.
    Vote ANC, we have the interest of SA and the poor people at heart. Their interest is best served by an ANC government only. We entered into a contract with the people. We will deliver on what we promised, even if it means to refuse the Dalai Lama a VISA in order to get the means to deliver what we promised our people!
    We will speed up the issue of land redistribution and rural development under a Zuma administration, because we believe the land belongs to all, and not just a few minority (like in Zimbabwe). We have tried willing-seller willing buyer but it is not working, hence the need for more serious measures.

    We understand the role of the Opposition Steve, but we wont be tolerant of their disregard for the rule of law (something they accuse us of – but are actually practicing it on a daily basis with the help of the media), and their selective application of this principle (the rule of law) to advance their course.

    We received a majority mandate from the voters in the Western Cape during the last election, and we cannot be accused of wanting to unseat Zille, who got far lesser votes that the ANC in that province. She grabbed power by the formation of a fractious coalition government, but we know that we got the majority vote there in Western Cape.
    We understand that Mr Nqula is no office bearer of the ANC and was given his package of 33million by the independent board of SAA, chaired by Prof Jakes Gerwel. The ANC has got nothing to do with this.

    Enjoy Steve. Nice weekend!

  50. Steve Rogers says:

    Hi Xolani

    I wouldn’t beat the opposition up too much on the law … you know glass houses and all that!

    I thought you’d be thrilled to read about a positive article written by a ‘minority’ on the subject of … hard to believe but true, Jacob Zuma. You can read that here: http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/newsletter_archive/breakfast_with_jacob_zuma.html

    Let’s have a beer after the election … if you win!!

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