Zapiro Mohammed cartoon

Zapiro Mohammed cartoon

Zapiro Mohammed Cartoon

Infamous South African cartoonist Jonathan Shapiro aka Zapiro is struggling to make headlines despite his best recent effort to earn himself a fatwa from the relevant Islamic authorities. Even Julius Malema is finding it tough to make the front page given the recent air disaster in India and the South African tragedy of numerous infant deaths in local hospitals. Besides that, following the South African Bafana Bafana team’s draw against Bulgaria in a soccer friendly on Monday night, a new wave of enthusiasm seems to have swept over the country.

Below is the controversial Zapiro cartoon in question:

Zapiro Mohammed Cartoon

Source: http://www.zapiro.com/

The usual arguments for and against freedom of speech are being bandied about. The minority affected, in this case the Muslim community in South Africa has expressed its outrage. What Wonkie finds quite funny is that Yusuf Abramjee, the chairman of the National Press Club (NPC) has been quite vocal about this particular cartoon:

“The media needs to be sensitive to religious beliefs and must not marginalise any community. We need to act responsibly. As a Muslim myself, I find it offensive and provocative. We promote freedom of speech and expression. But, let’s not forget that it is not absolute. In this case, it must be weighed against religious tolerance.”

It’s funny because the NPC did not take a stance against Zapiro when he made equivalent fun of the Pope, catholics or the Jewish community. Does the NPC have to step in here because the Muslim community has a lower tolerance for anything said about them?

Zapiro claimed that his cartoon was in response to Everybody Draw Mohammed Day – a facebook fad that caused havoc on the social networking site internationally last week. Zapiro’s stance on the matter is quite clear and his actions have been consistent, although controversial over the years:

“I believe that all religions should be subjected to satire and that some religious groups should not be able to think they are above society.”

Surely religious conviction should be able to rise above such issues – or are followers’ beliefs that fragile that they can be easily broken with a pencil sketch? This article is certainly not just about the Muslim community either. Some of the religion-orientated commentary on some of the previous Wonkie posts has demonstrated that sensitivity on the topic is far-reaching.

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Comments

  1. ZAPIRO IS DEAD MEAT!

  2. Moslim Community must get over themselves already

  3. The problem here its that they are quick to demand rights and respect but they don`t accord other`s those very same rights!

    While they want to go to other areas outside of their residential areas and put up mosques they don`t allow other churches in their areas.Their domestics are complaining that they have to travel for long distances to go to churches because their churches have been kicked out of muslim areas when they tried to set-up tent for congregation purposes.

  4. @ Tim. We had the same issue in Brits. ZCC memebers whanted to use a small area on a river bank but was bullied by be nearby Muslim community. Even after the local paper reported it, the editor recieved threats from “unknown origin” pertaining to the report published.

  5. I have no problem,it is there fanatical belife.all the killing car bombing etc is been done by this sect

  6. I am really disapointed in Zaphiro, I totaly agree with the freedom of speech but to mock and make fun of religions and their believes is unacceptable.
    And TIM, I truly doubt that might have happend, I am Muslim, but I dont desrespect, hummiliate or even do anything that would not be right to people of different religions, so does every muslim. I am not sayin that what you said is impossible, but dont blame the religion, those who do such things are people that have taken the religion in their own way and think that they are allowed to do whatever they feel like. Evry single person in this world deserves to be treated EQUALLY.

  7. Question:- Is there any mention or credit given to having a sense of humour in the Quran? Is having a sense of humour outlawed by the writings dictated by archangel Gabriel to Muhammad?

  8. I am an atheist and do not personally see anything wrong with taking the mickey out of any religion. However, there are elements within the “peacefull religion of Islam” who take a rather dim view of people poking fun at their blessed turbanned one (peace be upon him). They do not value human life (contrary to the teachings of their so-called faith) and, consequently, Mr Shapiro should grow eyes in the back of his head, for the time being….

  9. erraheim says:

    I think Zapiro left himself a escape route.There is nothing directly saying that this is the Holy Prophet – it could also be seen as a suicide bomber giving his deadly action some more thought.

  10. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE : MAKING A MOCKERY OF THE POPE OR ANY RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY THAT ARE ‘ALIVE’ AFFORDS THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO REFLECT AND RESPOND INDIVIDUALLY . NOW HOW WOULD THE OTHER RELIGIONS RESPOND IF FUN WAS POKED AT SAY JESUS , MOSES , DAVID , SOLOMON OR ANY OF THE OTHER PROPHETS OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD ?
    PERHAPS THE OTHER RELIGIONS DO NOT MIND BECAUSE THEIR’S ARE DEAD ONES ?

  11. There is nothing wrong with that cartoon. Moslim Community should not think that they are the first citizens of this country. Their responce to that cartoon is very dissapointing.

  12. Good question, and for the one who speaks about bombing, etc., not only Muslims do it, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Atheists, etc., do it too, might be in a fifferent way but they do, they kill eachother, commit suicide and all other evil acts they perform. I think that everybody should consider thinkin clearly before they say something. And if anyone did not notice….the paper next to the cartoon states Everybody draw Mohammed…What is that supposed to mean? Clearly now…

  13. The Muslims are over sensitive – its hilarious and nothing points directly to Mohammed

  14. I say leave religion out of all humour – more people have died in religious wars than any other war

  15. Oop, my grammar is incorrect! I suggest: don’t make fun of any religion – more people have died in religious wars than any other war! Peace, people!

  16. In the past it was OK to be a leader of sheep but in the 21st century you need to be able to lead the foxes as well and that is a very scary concept for so called ‘religious groups’.

  17. Ol' Pliny says:

    I have many books with illustrations of Jesus and the Apostles.
    There are also many pictures of Jesus in art galleries.
    Michelangelo, (Name means ‘Archangel Michael’) in his most famous
    painting, ‘The creation’ depicted God creating Adam.
    None, as far as I know, have ever objected – Not even Muslims.
    Is their prophet any greater then God or Jesus? – No.

    In her book entitled ‘What everyone should know about ISLAM and MUSLIMS
    (Kazi Publications Inc. Chicago USA 1982), Page 179, she writes:
    “…from the New Testament accounts of Jesus (peace be on him), it becomes
    clear that he must in truth have been a prophet in the line of other raised
    among the Children of Israel who…brought a revelation or scripture addressed
    to them by God.”

  18. Ol' Pliny says:

    By the way, I omitted the author’s name of the book I mentioned above:
    Suzanne Haneef is a married Muslim.

  19. Martian Visitor says:

    As outsiders visiting your planet, our observation is as follows

    In the beginning, Man created God (in his own image).

    Ever since then he has been fighting wars and killing other people because their version of God does not align with his own version of God.

    This makes no sense to us. Perhaps we are missing something here, but at the end of the day it appears that the only ones who are benefitting from what we can only describe as this farce … are the arms manufacturers and undertakers.

    Perhaps it’s time for you earthlings to go back to the drawing-board?

  20. to
    Ol’ Pliny
    I AM A MUSLIM , AND I KNOW THAT WE DO OBJECT TO THOSE PICTURES AS WELL, WE RESPECT JESUS WHOM WE ALSO REFER TO AS A PROPHET AND A APOSTLE OF GOD AND NOT GOD, AND GOD THE ONE AND ONLY CANOT BE DEPICTED IN ANY FORM AS WELL,
    TO YOUR QUESTION IS MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H) GREATER THAN GOD, THE ANWER IS NO! IS HE GREATER THAN ISA THE SON OF MARIAM (PEACE BE UPON THEM BOTH), YES,
    I DO NOT FOLLOW YOUR RELIGION AND YOU DO NOT FOLLOW MINE,
    WE WILL HAVE PEACE UNTILL YOU TRAMP MY TOES!

    • Mohamed Rashid Haffajee says:

      All humans are equal (according to Islam and all other religions?) And all humans have a sense of humour. So, all humans love humour equally?

  21. @ Haffy. Why so agro?

  22. chris du Plessis says:

    One thing about the Muslim world that bothers me a lot is that they absolutely refuse to ever ask themselfs questions about their own comunity’s actions. When a Muslim does something to a Non-muslim, it is always OK, no matter how wrong it is. There just is never anything wrong with Muslims even though they are also just human (I think). They regard it as sacrilege to speak up against Muslims who do wrong.
    I dont see this with the Christians. They are very quick to nail their own kind when they do wrong. But when the finger is pointed at Muslims, they cry fowl with always. No wonder Non-muslims are so sarcastic about Muslims (not Islam, but they people who belief in it)
    I think that obedience is so hammerd into theys people that they are blind to any injustice in their world. The few who do SEE, are just way to scared to say anything. Just looking at the Islamic countries, it is obvious that human rights are absolutely non-existant. Muslims are not allow to think for themselfs and it looks to me like the Islamic world is entering their Dark Ages. Worst of all is that their religious views are actually determined by people with political and personal agends, very high-up in the Islamic religious structure.

  23. Shirley says:

    I really think that people should lighten up about religion, after all there are many beliefs and NO ONE knows who is right! So many people think that theirs is the one and only……….Personally I think the response to this cartoon shows that there is very little sense of humour around.

  24. What about that other much maligned religion – Jehovahs Witnesses? EVERYONE pokes fun at them, even on TV, and generally in a very negative way. You don’t see the JW’s getting up in arms. The Muslims need to read their Koran and start practising their principles of tolerance, understanding and forgiveness and stop their nonsense following man-made rules against depictions of the prophets.

  25. Roadrunner says:

    FAIR – May 26th, 2010 at 9:08 am – you are uninformed. Jesus Christ is alive,… remember He rose from the dead and ascended into heaven… in fact I spoke to Him this morning! God bless

  26. just live shapiro alone sitire medicine for many

  27. Well said (re: Abramjee) and I urge your talented artists to do something recalling the anti Semitic attack outside a shul in Sydenham, and the words uttered by Bogani whatsit from COSATU and ask why Abramjee never wept in his cornflakes over that.
    Congrats Wonkie :))

  28. No words from Abramjee when Zapiro soiled the name of the Jewish communities.
    Sies Abramjee – sies!

  29. I personally cannot see anything demeaning or derogatory in the cartoon. I think the Muslims that take offence should consider getting over their intolerance tendencies.

  30. And we were silent when Zapiro made fun of the POPE so whats the big deal

  31. Cartoons are only the iceberg tip
    Muslims “do and do not actions
    Do: Outrage against cartoons
    Do not: Antiterorisms demonstration
    Do: Building Mosks worldwide
    Do not:Permit building of non Islam praying homes in many Muslim controlled areas
    Do: Demanding freedom for all aspects of Muslim culture worldwide
    Do not: Demand Muslim recognition of free&peaceful coexistence among all cultures
    Do: Demand free Islamic preaching
    Do not: Stop incitement& individual Jihad against the host country

  32. GatvolinSA says:

    If the creator who made us all (call Him whatever name you wish) gave us a sense of humor, then surely that means He also has a sense of humor since we are made in His image? Are we not all brothers in this world? Do we not all bleed red if we are wounded? Let each man live his own life the way he has been taught and let each keep to the laws of their people.

    Respect is something each of us covets but it is NOT a right people.
    Respect must be earned.

    Freedom of speech allows us to speak our minds about anything we wish in this country so long as it does not constitute hate speech nor encourage civil unrest or violence. If you simply must poke fun at a religion then make it your own that you poke fun at. Personally I poke fun at my religion all the time as there are some right silly people running about spouting some right silly stuff in the name of my belief and someone needs to stand up and tell them how silly they are being. I leave other religions alone though as I am prejudiced by lack of information. I do not know enough about them to be able to make any kind of observation be it humorous or not.

    To the followers of Mohammed out there, peace be with you all. I doubt that the people who poke fun at your faith do so out of malice. I think that they are, like me, simply prejudiced by lack of information. It is also difficult for others to empathise with your faith when the media sensationalises the zealots who blow themselves and others up for their faith. I agree with LK there in that Muslims are not by any means the only ones with zealots in their faith. It is the media who forces our view onto only certain faith related crimes which skews the picture.

    If you want a faith that really makes absolutely no sense whatsoever take a look at L Ron Hubbard’s Scientology. (And yes I can poke fun at him and his faith because he stated in a press conference that he was setting out to create a fake religion for the purposes of creating a tax break, so anyone who believes anything he said is a bit of a nut in my humble opinion)

  33. i agree with lulu, lets all leave religion as everyones religion does wrong or right. it depends on how you believe

  34. The first amendment to the US constitution is the right to free expression , tied into the same amendment is the right to freedom of religion which includes both the right to worship and the right not to worship. Inherent in such rights is the freedom to criticize or proclaim religion and its icons. The same first amendment can be interpreted within our own bill of rights. Obviously the Muslim (Jewish, Christian, Scientology, Satanic) community may use their right of freedom of expression to condemn whoever satirizes them but they step outside the law when they threaten retribution or a fatwa. My interpretation of the Zapiro cartoon is that the Muslim fundamentalist community singularly lacks a sense of humour and needs to lighten up.

  35. Its quite simple really, if your religion forbids you from drawing Mohammed the Muslim prophet, then the followers of this religion have the choice to obey or not, but do not have the audacity to demand that we do the same! I am always amused that followers of the Muslim faith always remember to state that, by the way Jesus, is also a prophet, but not the prophet, and we Christians let it slide because we are taught and believe, that our Saviour taught true peace and love and as such you will find that true Christians practice tolerance to other religions, something which i am afraid is sadly lacking in the Muslim faith

  36. Laughter is the best medicine , if we can laugh at ourselves then we overcome a lot of stress, try it, it works. Laughter also prevents confrontation. Driving and watching all the serious faces each one ready to blow the hooter if anybody irrates them on the road. Road humor should replace road rage.

  37. THE INTOLERANCE ATTITUDE OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IS HIGHLY EMBARRASING AND DISGUSTING, THIS(ISLAM) IS THE ONLY RELIGION THAT I KNOW OF WHERE THE FAITHFUL FIGHTS FOR THEIR GOD, MY OWN GOD IS NOT HELPLESS NOR WEAK TO BE FOUGHT FOR BY THE FAITHFUL.
    THEY SHOULD BE TAUGHT MORE ON TOLERANCE AND THIS COMES WITH BEING LITERATE.

  38. GatvolinSA

    brilliant commentary.
    X

  39. God, the Creator of the universe, is LOVE, but the followers of Allah are full of hate and intolerance. I prefer to worship the God, who is love.
    I challenge any Muslim who truly and sincerely wants to know the Truth, to go on his knees and ask God to show him the Truth. Be prepared to be blown away!

  40. and some people wonder why we still have wars……

  41. Well said Tanni, read the book “I dared to call HIM Father” and be prepared for a life changing experience, following a religion should be about love and inner peace in the knowledge that God is the Father and is a compassionate God not one where you are defending your corner and declaring Fatwa’s on anyone who dares question, or heaven forbid creates a cartoon….

  42. GatvolinSA says:

    @ Mike: Could you please give us the name of the author of that book?

    @ Gill: Thank you :)

  43. yes its by
    Bilquis Sheikh, google it, you can get it on Amazon or Kalahari :)

  44. To GatvolinSA, brilliant commentary, couldnt have said it better my damn self! people need to lighten up, the world needs something to smile about, and people only make a fuss when the wheel is turned on them, I bet you Muslims will crack at Christian Jokes given the opportunity.

  45. I am not a Muslim, neither am I a Jew,nor a Christian, however such cartoons irrespective of the purpose they are drawn for, they are very inflamatory and rub others the wrong way. Sense of humour does not find its expression only on regious grounds, why then is Zaphiro hell bent on offending people? Freedom of expression has limitations like all rights confered by the constitution of the Republic of South Africa. Whether it is the Pope, somebody’s ancestor, or even some Jewish Rabbi, who is lampooned, the tendency is wrong. Zaphiro is probably a Jew, why doesn’t he lampoon a Jewish prophet? Die is rerig n skandelike, onbekikte gemors!

  46. All of you need to understand and appreciate the art of satirical, political cartooning. The artist is hell bent on annoying people. He will poke fun at Malema, Zuma, the Chief Rabbi, Glenn Agglioti etc. Anyone in the news = fair game.
    I am 100% behind freedom of expression, which does not make me agree with the thought process behind the creation of a cartoon. When Zap. did the Prophet Mohammed – he was following the challenge put out by a Face Book group, which teasingly dared people to draw their impression of The Prophet. Zap. had a choice to do it, or step away. He chose “Do it” and I believe, personally, it was a wrong choice. Why? Because it is highly offensive in a religious sense to a religious group, and I would not want to anger a group for ‘cheap-’ reward.
    HOWEVER – the Mail and Guardian did it for one reason.. they made money. It caused a sensation and everyone ran to buy a copy.
    Bottom line -
    $$s will win every time

  47. i find it hard to understand why is this issue coming up now. Is it because its about the Muslims? If people didn’t like the previous catoons why didn’t they make it such a big deal like this one?

  48. Kay – because the Moslems are highly sensitive and history shows us – actively destructive when anyone dares to ‘mess’ with Their Prophet.
    When the Danish cartoon was drawn – showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban – the burning, shrieking, fighting and smashing up of buildings was to demonstrate that to them – this is a serious offence.
    Zapiro by chancing provocative cartooning – opened the door for mayhem.

  49. GatvolinSA says:

    @ Buzz: Thank you :)

  50. Reading gill and kays comments I must say that for me therin lies the rub. Why should we be scared of a reaction, it is pure intimidation by the muslim community. This is not about the cartoon it is about a principle of freedom, that they will try to erode at every turn, there is no freedom in Islamic countries, Christians are being persecuted on an ongoing basis. It’s the thin edge of the wedge. I wonder what was said in the M&G meeting to make them back off, something about repercussions and the world cup I bet

  51. Mike… 100% right. What angers me is that the Jewish groups took Zapiro to court for a factually incorrect and insulting cartoon, and it was thown out because the judge said the Constitution allowed freedom of expression.
    UGH… I hate double standards in this country!

  52. I think it is disgusting when prophets of God are ridiculed regardless of what religion.Please take me off your distribution list.

  53. Positive diverse commentary from a number of guys who in many topics clash…Gatvol, Gill, Mike nicely outlined…freedom of speech indeed, I wonder what would be Dirk’s comment…?just inquisitive

  54. I think all the muslim community should realise that Zapiro has nothing against their religion. he is just making the tense South Africans laugh if he wakes up wanting to draw Zuma , Jesus. Mohhamed thats his choice people lossen up come on. now

  55. slum dweller says:

    Get a life muslims, Christians don’t get upset when you call their Jesus a Prophet, he is the Son of their God therefore a God in the Trinity in their belief.

    Seems to me the only problem with Islam is Muslims, the same as the only problem with Christianity is Christians.

  56. It is amazing the world is sick

  57. Bdc… I wonder too!
    It’s damn interesting to see the diverse views here. I wonder if Zapiro comes and checks out this lovely site?

  58. Zweli
    The prophets of the Jews in the Bible were all REAL prophets and therefore they had no followers like mohamed has and can not become somebody’s joke as their teachings are all solid and fair and the God who gave them their words happen to be the One and only real true living God.
    When dealing with a guy like mohamed, who was married to a catholic and who teach things that makes allah looks like some fool, such a “prohet” need to be protected by his followers as his allah-god must be angry with him!
    slum dweller, there is no problem with chritianity, the problem is with those who observe cotholics and other so called christian chirches as christian! True christians are not religeous and do not have a temple or church or synagoge and do not follow some prophet but follow the new law of perfect freedom and eternal life written onto their hearts by the one and only living God.

    And to all muslims and ALL other religeous people, take advise from Tim and read that book by Bilquis Sheikh so you also may one day dare to call Him Father like I do!

  59. Dirk – it’s a fascinating book.
    I also urge people to read it, simply because it’s of interest (seemingly) to everyone here.

  60. open minded says:

    The response of the muslim community is way out of line. None of them know what the prophet Mohammed looked like, so how can they claim that a cartoon is an “illegal” depiction of him ?
    Muslims offend non-muslims DAILY by forcing their beliefs and practices onto them. Yet non-muslims tolerate it – me thinks we non-muslims don’t realise the threat that these people are to a tolerant and peaceful society.

  61. bottom line…crack pot jokes at what people hold sacred is not allright…this is just an indication of how fcuked up society has become…you will sooner be sued for defermation of character when insulting an individual and considered full of humour when insulting God…the Muslims have a right to stand up for what they beleive and make a noise…they are not the gaurdians of other religions and therefore cannot be blamed or labeled as having double standards for what the NPC did or didnt do for his eminence the Pope, Jews or any other religious sect…and Dirk i dont care what you consider yourself “christian or true christian” there is no book of God or law of the Almighty that allows such incitive speech…surely as one blessed with the inscription of the one and only Gods law in your heart he would want you to bring or call others onto his path by your deeds…and the way you have slandered a people’s faith is totaly against any teaching of God be he the “christian’ or “true christian” God…

  62. Fabian Brown says:

    Publishing a cartoon about a profit is not threatening to a religion if it us grounded. Muslims should find confidence that their teachings are truthful
    and cannot be compromised or diminished by a cartoon. There are curtain fights that men should fight. The rest should be left to God. Defending a religion is not in the natural but in the spirit. It seems the violence is the only defense today to the Muslim faith. So sad.

  63. Fabian’s spelling mistake (‘profit’ instead of ‘Prophet’) says it all. Brilliant.. hahaha… as I said – newspapers are there to make ‘profits’ out of ‘PROPHETS’

  64. the defending of a religion shud be in everything the mind body and soul…the allowing of provocative litrature/media in any form is as bad as the violence it begets…the muslims are not above society but i commend them in their outcry and willingness to hit the street in protest to what is against their belief…yes we are living in a modern society where it is percieved to be cool to be of no moral or religious beliefs…but not every one chooses that and the muslims have chosen to defend that…do not entice a people then complain of violence when they react…

  65. further more it is this seemingly innocent publishing of cartoons regarding peoples faith that allows the rot and moral decay of a faith…why dont we read and find out why this depiction has caused such an outcry instead of making generalistic comments because no matter how well spoken or intended they are they are ignorant…prehaps if we took the time to inderstand our brothers and sisters we wouldnt be here…and i have yet to see a prominent muslim media figure taking pot shots at other religions even in jest…God has placed us on this earth as a favour and bounty of his…he has elected us over all of creation and made us gaurdians of our domain…GOD DOES NOT JEST!!!….

  66. Rob Dix says:

    Ha, ha – let’s check the phone book to find out which Mahomed (with a beard, towel-head etc) is Zapiro actually depicting? This is a stupid comment too!

  67. 4real
    Answer me this:
    Where did we see local Moslems object, march, shout out, write enraged letters when Daniel Pearl – a journalist – was beheaded?
    Where was the outrage?
    Huh?

    How can they be outraged and insulted about the drawing of a picture but not by the drawing of a sword?
    What is more valuable? Ink or blood?

  68. 4real

    You dare to tell me that I should act against the word of God! VEVLOEK IS JY EN JOU NAGESLAG! Go stand in the corner and stay there until you did some reading…. my God does not tollerate any form of lie and does not ask or need your guidence either!

    Ex. 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
    13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

    Deut 7: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
    4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

    5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

    6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
    8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

    The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

    To argue with me about the things of God is like willingly and openly making a fool of yourself….and to teach me how a christian should behave is even worse!

    I am sent to break down all the heathen’s altars, holy places and slaughter their sacret cows – so 4real…let me inform you exactly who you are for real…you are part of the anti-Christ, the beasts of daniel and Revelation and unless you repent, destined for hell!

  69. Most Muslims are an insult to the holy Kuran as they interpret the holy book the way they want to and to suit themselves. They are greedy, envious and demanding . They want everything their own way and couldn’t give a damn for beliefs and traditions of non-Muslims. They are alway causing chaos in Europe and in other countries where they have emigrated. Going as far as demanding that crucifixes in public buildings, schools etc in Christian countries be removed and that old churches or burial grounds be raised to the ground for them to erect mosques. A lot of them keep their women in constant servitude – as a matter of fact – go to Lenasia and see how in many houselholds the men eat by themselves without any women (wife, daughters etc.) With the excuse of Islam, they are polygamous, but the first wife usually has everything and the others are just there as servants with hardly any rights. Take the dress code for women (Burka etc. – i.e. body and face fully covered just as if a person had put on a sort of black refuse bag over the head reaching down to the feet where a woman wearing it can hardly look right or left without turning her body i.e. a real CAGE) This is offensive to any decent thinking civilised person as well as being a security risk with all these suicide bombers moving about. I have even seen a mother and two +- 6/8 year old daughters – all 3 of them wearing burka in some top shopping Malls in JHB. Can you immagine these little girls dressed up like that. The Burka should be banned – it is happening in France and Switzerland and I am sure the whole of Europe will follow. Europe has had enough of these dictatorial communitiues. Nobody can guess who is the person under the burka – it could be a man dressed as a woman (that’s how Osama Bin Laden made his escape) or someone with a bomb. Of course westerners would never dream of searching someone under a burka in case (sic) of offending the sensibility of the Muslim community. ( Muslims would not think twice of offending non-muslims’ sensibilities.) As a matter of fact, we westerners show too much respect for these hypocritical people who don’t want to mix or integrate with others and whose motto is “Don’t do as I do, but do as I say and if you don’t obey then you are dead “. In Italy there are many incidents of how daughters of muslim families have had their throats cut by the father of the family while being held down by uncles and brothers, because these girls either wanted to dress in western clothing or date a non-muslim man. These people even arrange for their daughters at the young age of 10 or 12 years to be sold or to later on go in marriage to an old relative living in their home countries, whom these young girls have never seen in their lives. A non-muslim French friend of mine in Iran (under Khomeini) was jailed for a week and beaten up because, while loading the boot of her car with groceries the scarf on her head slipped and her hair showed. Most Muslims bring havoc wherever they go. They have no respect for non-Muslims. According to their religion, we are infidels and therefore have no rights. Also people must be converted to Islam even at the point of a sword. (This is in the holy Kuran). They are highlly intollerant and will not allow any other religion in their own countries. As a matter of fact if you wore a chain with a cross around your neck, you’ll have you throat cut. In Saudi Arabia women are not allowed to drive or move around without a male member of the family. Of course you all know that there are not only AlQaida cells (branches) in SA but a number of very wealthy muslims families that support this terrorist group. So my fellow South Africans from whatever faith including moderate muslims wake up and smell the coffee and stop tollerating and finding excuses for these dreadful people who would not hesitate one second to slit your throat. THEREFORE let us all support our cartoonists. You should all read a book on Islam written by a top, top Italian Journalist in New York. Her name is Oriana Fallaci. She died a few years ago. This book is enlightening and will make you think. LET’S MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE BY CONDEMNING FUNDAMENTALISTS.

  70. emmanuelita – thanks for that. This is precisely my point.
    There’s a curious silence from the imams regarding the depraved behaviour of the Islamic fundamentalists.

    Know why??? Cos they are paid by terror groups and hence have to preach what they are told to preach

  71. Emmanualita, Gill, you took the words right out of my mouth! The arrogance prevails because to the muslims there is no other religion but theirs, they regard Mohammed as the final prophet and therefore he had the final say, my question on this is how come, the Son of GOD Jesus came to earth and preached peace and love, understanding and all the other good values, and yet 600 years later Mohammed came to earth and preached violence and non tolerance of any non Muslim? The problem now is that because these poor people are totally indoctrinated into this belief, if they are believers they are obliged to defend the faith. That is why when these idiotic defenders of the faith blow up the world, the rest of the muslim community is silent!

  72. well sed Dirk…i must say well sed…and thats how 400 years of slavery against the black man survived…thats how apartheid was made aesthetic…thats how Hitler maimed a people…they were after all the anti-christ and less than human…”beasts”…my brother all i’m saying here is you cant realy judge me till you walk a mile in my shoes…nobody has the right over another…especially in religion….and you cant complain to a lion for losing an arm when you willfuly put your hand in its cage…let not your beliefs interfere with mine and mine not yours…for i may be prepared to lay my life down for mine and you not yours…lets stop tramping on each others toes for doesnt the advancement in civilization dictate a certain level of tolerance…

  73. zapiro fuk you

  74. hassan, there have been some really insightfull discussions on this subject, I must say that yours doesnt quite fit in with what is being discussed, are you sure that this is all you have to say on the subject? Or do you leave us with the impression of being yet another stereo typed follower, who has no value to add just profanities and aggression…

  75. hahaah@ Mike

  76. Hastheworldgonecrazy... says:

    Has the world gone crazy???? We’re born, we labour through a really tacky life, we die! If we can’t laugh in between the born part and the die part, what’s the point? Zapiro, Wonkie and other intelligent cartoonists are doing their bit to help us be HAPPY, dammit! What the hell is the matter with everyone?

  77. HasTheworld..
    I could not agree more.

  78. slum dweller says:

    read the following link to see what emanualita means

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-22/ayaan-hirsi-alis-new-book-nomad-reviewed/full/

    and for an insite on fundamental christiaity see

    http://new.exchristian.net/2010/05/its-not-funny-anymore.html

    research a bit more, I found these today

  79. slum dweller says:

    Hassan
    can we hear from your mother, sister or wife?

    what would they say about Ayaan Hirsi?

  80. gill
    That imams and dominee’s and pastors and father’s all preach what they are told to preach, is a fact – the reason why I call all synagoge’s, churches, temple’s and other places of “teaching” the beast of revelation and the anti-Christ…. there is only one teacher that can be trusted, and that is God Himself!

  81. Shirley

    The only ones that does not know weather they right or wrong, are the religeous ones – no matter what religeon they follow! The ones who received the gift of faith from God DO KNOW where they off to and no longer hope for the best. See, it works like this, once you have met peter pan in person, you no longer wonder if peter pan really is, you know because you met him….same goes with God – once you have met Him, you no longer wonder or just believe….YOU KNOW THAT YOU KNOW THAT YOU KNOW and there is no longer guessing or hopin g for the best.

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

  82. Dirk – I never heard of a priest, rabbi or Hindu preacher telling his flock to strap explosives to themselves and become martyrs by blowing up women and children…

  83. outside Africa says:

    Some religions are obviously more tolerant than others! What sort of “God” expects its followers to kill (others or themselves) to protect his name? If he was the almighty, all powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God who loves with an everlasting love, name calling would be of no consequence (except to some followers.) Lighten up Mohamed, like the rest of us have to.
    Long live Wonkie!

  84. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -Epicurus, philosopher (c. 341-270 BCE)

  85. outside Africa says:

    St. Augustine of Hippo AD 354-430 “Believe, that you may understand”.
    “For since the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believed” – 1 Cor 1:21 (NASB)

  86. Ol' Pliny says:

    Dirkie > ” …. there is only one teacher that can be trusted, and that is God Himself!”
    Yes, indeed, God was the teacher of the Jews: (Isa 48:17)
    Jesus is teacher to the Christian congregation. (John 13:13; Matt 5:27-48; 23:8)
    The Mosaic law died with him. (Col 2:14)

    By the way, have you ever read Galations 1:7, 8 ? “…there are some who trouble you and want to
    pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to
    you, let him be accursed.”

    That effectively puts an end to the theory that anyone can worsip God they way they want to.
    They use as an example a wheel, where all the spokes lead to the hub.
    Ignoring the fact that without an axle, the hub serves little purpose.

    By the way, how come we don’t hear you on the “World cup forum” ?
    Your contributions liven things up a little.

  87. Hi,
    We are from one grand father, you know very well “Prophet HAZRAT IBRAHIM”,
    if you are thinking you will crash the heart of Muslims, THINK First you are not making happy to IESAH (Alihe Salam) because MOHAMMED (PEACE BE UPON HIM) AND IESAH (Alihe Salam) PREACH the same RELIGION, That is ONE GOD And We says One ALLAH,
    Qura’an Clearly says that IESAH (Alihe Salam) Preach the only about ALLAH’S Religion,
    You Love to IESAH (Alihe Salam)?
    Then How you Drawn the Same Family Member’s Cartoon,
    Think……
    Drawing Cartoon is simple but think which Cartoon you are drawing?
    the same family member…………..why
    You making compulsory Hell on you …….By your OWN HANDS,
    Please make sorry to (Allah) (God),
    And do worship in night and ask to our (God) (Allah) please forgive my sins and make me Jannati,
    Please think you are not putting any one to in loss Accept only YOU,
    PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Make pray to (God Allah) about your
    Blunder Mistake,………

    Regards,
    Mohammed Aamer,
    India,

  88. Mohammed Aamer in India peace be upon you, your family, sheep, goats, animals. cars, whatever you wish peace on.
    explain how a drawing – which we all do – we all draw faces and trees and seashores can make Allah cross?
    Where did Allah say “If you try and be creative and with a smile, you draw the Prophet’s lovely happy face = that is a crime, you bad person~”
    I don’t get it

  89. DRUG DEAL;ER CHABAAN TOLD THE MEDIA HE IS A MSLIM AN HE HATES BLACKS AND PREFER COLOUREDS AND THAT`S WHY HIS PARTY IS A COLOURED PARTY AND I IMMEDIATELY PETITIONED THE MUSLIM JUDICIAL COUNCIL TO EITHER DENY THIS OR ENDORSE IT AND I RECEIVED NO COOPERATION.I THEN DID MY OWN RESEARCH AND WHAT I DETECTED WAS THAT TO BE ACCEPTED IN ISLAM YOU MUST BE ANTI BLACK.I WENT TO THE ISLAMC TRUST IN FORDSBURG AND THE WOMEN THERE JUST LAUGHED AT M AND AFTER SOME 30 MINUTES ATTENDECD TO ME BY WAIVIN THEIR HANDS IN THE AIR AND I LEFTY HERE A VERY OFFENDED MAN.MUSLIMS CAME TO AFRICA TO JOIN WHITES TO SUPPRESS,OPPRESS AND UNDERDEVELOP BLACKS.

  90. tim you are the funniest idiot, there are more black muslims than white muslims in the world, the prophets muazin was an abysinian slave, there were many muslims involved in the fight against apartheid, you can check that up your self, you can also walk into any mosque and see for your self how people of differnt colours are present, anyway nice replyng to you.

  91. IF YOU CAME TO SOUTH AFRICA IN THE PAST YOU HAVE HAD TO SIGN DOCUMENTS COMMITTING YOURSELF TO APARTHEID AND ALL THAT IT STANDS FOR OTHERWISE DOORS WERE SLAMMED IN YOUR FACE.

    THAT`S EXACTLY WHAT I`M SAYING THAT THOSE BLACK MUSLIMS HAVE CEASED TO BE BLACK THE MOMENT THEY BECAME MUSLIMS WHERE THEY NOW SEE BLACKS AS FILTHY,UNHYGIENIC,BARBARIAN,MISCREANTS AND UNHEALTHY LOT.THEY NOW SEE BLACKS AS SERVANTS WHOM THEY CANNOT TREAT AS EQUALS BUT SUBSERVIENTS.YOU ONLY NEEDS TO BE AT INTERSECTIONS AND SEE HOW QUICK MUSLIMS GIVE TO THOSE GLUE SNIFFERS AND BLACK ALCOHOLICS BECAUSE THEY ARE HAPPY TO SEE BLACKS DESTROYING THEMSELVES AND ARE AIDING THEM BY GIVING THEM MONEY TO BUY MORE GLUE AND ALCOHOL.
    THOSE MUSLIMS IN THE STRUGGLE WERE SUPREMACISTS WHO WANTED TO DOMINEER,CONTROL AND RULE THEIR BLACK COLLEAGUES AND COUNTER PARTS
    THOSE MUSLIMS IN TH STRUGGLE AGAINST APARTHEID WERE ISOLATED AND DEMONISED BY THE MUSLIMS BECAUSE THEY WERE SEEN AS PEOPLE WHO WILL LEAD TO MUSLIMS BEING KICKED-OUT OF THIS COUNTRY FOR VIOLATING THE CONDITIONS THEY WERE ALLOWED INTO THIS COUNTRY UNDER THAT THEY WON`T CRITICISE THE THEN GOVERNMNTS.TODAY,THERE`S NOT A SINGLE MSLIM HOUSEHOLD THAT HAS THOSE PEOPLE`S PORTRAITS ON THEIR WALLS AND THEY ARE NOT BEING HONOURED OR SPOKEN OF.WHITES ARE TREATED MORE EQUALLY AND HUMANLY WHERE THOSE WHITE TRAMPS WHO ARE GIVEN JOBS ARE GIVEN PIES AND COKES DURING LAUNCH WHEREAS BLACKS ARE JUST BEING THROWN WITH HOT CURRY.WHITE WOMEN WHO MARRY MUSLIMS ARE NOT TREATED LIKE BLACK WOMAN WHERE THEIR FREEDOM IS TAKEN AWAY BUT MORE LENIENTLY.THERE`S NO MUSLIM WHO WILL SAY THEY HAVE ALLOWED A BLACK MAN INTO THEIR LOUNGE OR BAR BUT MANY WHITES WERE INVITED INTO THOSE. THOSE MUSLIMS IN THE STRUGGLE WERE SUPREMACISTS WHO WANTED TO DOMINEER,CONTROL AND RULE THEIR BLACK COLLEAGUES AND COUNTER PARTS

  92. I find Tim’s words chilling and revealing a side of Black culture that I have not seen, nor known. Is this true? Do Black people feel that Muslims are like this? Is this a perception of most Muslims?
    I’d be fascinated to read everyone’s comments.

  93. gill. I don’t think it is so much a Muslim this as it is the general “Black vs. the rest of the world” attitude. I have seen this particular phenomenon all over (Europe, US, South America and even Asia). And No, I am not a racist, I am commenting on something I have been observing for the last 10 years on 5 different continents.

  94. CCS… I am finding this WONKIE site to be the most informative window on the profiles of the many races and cultures in S Africa. It’s so revealing and so fascinating. You are saying “this is the general “Black vs. the rest of the world” attitude and I am finding out more and more how enraged we become because of intolerance… not meaning YOU but mankind.
    It’s time ‘TOLERANCE’ was taught along with ABC and 123 in schools.. don’t you think?
    I need to learn more.. MORE!! :))

  95. gill. Agreed. I know I just limited my post to match Tim’s response but on the point of tolerance (or the lack there of) regarding race, nationality and religion you will never find a better example of all of these in the old eastern block countries (Estonia, Latvia, Georgia and all the other ex-ottoman empire countries.). Here we have killings in the name of religion (Islam, Orthodox Christian and Roma) still going on today. Again from personal experience, once people start accepting things on FACE VALUE rather than looking for “deeper meaning” the “stuff” usually indicating the level of tolerance of a people (cartoons, jokes and general comments about everything, anything and anyone) is accepted and embraced almost automatically.

  96. CCS.. kudos to you
    :))

  97. There is a direct relationship between tolerance/intolerance and levels of education in the general population, its not rocket science!! Check my earlier post re sheep. The groups of people that are the most vociferous are often the ones that are most threatened.

  98. Just read it now TJ.
    have to admit straight up that I can’t get into the religious side of this argument because I am not religiously equipped!

  99. Ol' Pliny says:

    TJ, except for one initial comment, I have stayed clear of this forum.
    The following axiom explains: “You can talk to a Muslim but you cannot reason
    with a Muslim.” It is general practice among the more tolerant in society, to try
    an find a common ground upon which discussions may be based.

    This is non-existent in Islam. Whatever you say will be shouted down, and is
    usually followed by threats, for instance Haffy’s LOUD response. (Stressed in capitals)
    As you say TJ, the difference being; ‘the level of education’. In this country, violence is
    greatest among the misinformed. EG: Those breaking into homes, strikers, etc.

    The following quotes on how to judge society, may explain a particular point:
    “A nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.” ~ Mahatma Ghandi
    “Any society, any nation, is judged on the basis of how it treats its weakest members — the
    last, the least, the littlest.” ~Cardinal Roger Mahony, In a 1998 letter, Creating a Culture of Life
    The greatness of America is in how it treats its weakest members: the elderly, the infirm, the handicapped, the underprivileged, the unborn. ~Bill Federer

    There is also a quote of unknown source which says: “You can judge a person by the way he
    treats his animals.”

    An animal is a lowly life that can by no means be compared to higher human life. The kindest
    one can be in this respect must surely be man’s beloved mate – his wife. Read what the apostle
    Peter says in this respect at 1 Peter 3:7, 8) By contrast, look how Muslims threat them.

  100. Gill,I have done sociology research on all communities since in the past {in the name of the struggle}if I was seen with anyone outside of my community I would have to convince the community that was not a NATS securocrat and I did that by working for these communities and that`s how I was expiosed to the clandestine inner workings of the Muslims.

    Women and blacks are just a pissashit who must be sat on the neck so that they must always walk as if they have a yoke on their necks!This is why I was behind Bush`s action in Iraq and with Netanyau in Gaza.tHIS IS AFTER FINDING THAT THEY TOO WHEN THEY GET TO COUNTRIES THEY DON`T GO TO BLACKS BUT WHITES.IN THE PAST IN SOUTH AFRICA THEY USED TO CORNER BLACKS IN THEIR BUSINESS4ES AND ABUSE THEM THERE EVEN CALLING THEM KAFFERS IN THEIR TOUNG AND ALWAYS ENSURED THAT BLACKS THEY EMPLOYED OR JOKED WITH WERE NOT STRUGGLERS.

    I`M NOT IMPLYING THAT BLACKS ARE IN ANYWAY DEMOCRATIC OR THAT OTHER RELIGIONS ARE ANY BETTER BUT HERE IT WAS ABOUT PROPHET MUHAMMED EXCLUSIVELY.

  101. Ol' Pliny says:

    Dirk stamp ‘n kurk in. (Dirk rams in a stopper) Yes indeed, God sent his prophets to
    denounce false worship. After Jesus himself, then John the Babtist, Elijah was the
    greatest of God’s prophets, hallowed from 1st Kings all the way to Malachi in the O.T.
    as well as in the N.T.

    At the showdown at Mount Carmel, he challenged worshipers of Baal as to whether their God was greater
    than his own Yahweh. 1 kings 18:26-26 (New Jerusalem Bible) In response, those false worshipers
    appealed and made deep incisions as they called upon Baal to better Elijah’s sacrifice – to no avail.
    Elijah then mocked their God. He told them to scream a little harder. Maybe Baal was asleep or busy
    having a crap.

    Those making ridiculous claims, have them selves to blame if mocked, and deservedly so.

  102. outside Africa says:

    It is GANDHI who said “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its ANIMALS are treated”.

  103. Ol' Pliny says:

    Hi outside Africa.
    Love for animals will obviously inspire many to originate sayings of that nature.
    In fact, about five or six people have been attributed to be the original author.
    I have a two books on ‘Phrases’ and find no reference in either.
    As for proof – none exists.

    Chinese author Pearl S Buck was among my favourites as young boy sixty five years ago.
    In her book ‘The Good Earth’ she calls her children by numbers,
    EG: Son number one, etc. She too had her own version of the saying.
    Gandhi, a Hindu, impressed by good sayings, often quoted from the sermon on the mount.

    Even further back in history God expressed that his people have consideration for animals.
    (Deut 25:4; Jonah 4:11) The Jews were considered Gods among the other nations,
    and this was probably due to God’s injunction. Thus, God is the only known origin of the expression.

  104. Ol' Pliny says:

    Emanuelita, what a pretty name you have. Everything you have said is true
    because I have experienced similar observances.
    One 36 degree day at a supermarket, I dared my wife to approach two
    women in Burkas, and ask then if they don’t feel uncomfortable.
    The eldest said, “Sjoe, its terrible.” Emboldened a little, my wife passed a remark, “Gee, the Muslim faith really treat their women badly.” She first looked nervously looking around her, and whispered, “Like dogs.” I notice that their women are finally standing up
    to the abuse.

    There is something that has always bothered me: Why do these various religions insist on
    not only advertising their religion by their surplices, crosses, robes, turbans, other
    headwear and habits. England has, perhaps had, a problem with Hindus who refused to
    wear safety helmets when riding motorcycles. When I was at school we had to remove
    our caps in class. Muslims refuse to do this.

    Their sharia laws are dreadfully sadistic. Imagine lopping off a man’s arm without
    any type of anaesthetic. Its barbaric to punish a person all his life for perhaps
    stealing on account of hunger. He will never again be able to support his family.
    On the second theft charge, the poor devil loses a leg on the other side.

    I began reading a book about these things some time ago. As a fairly civilised person, I
    found it so revolting I tore it to pieces. Only later did I realise I acted too hastily.
    I should have passed it on to someone who sides with them.

    • Emanuelita Rastelli-Webb says:

      Sharia laws are revolting. Let’s unite and not give “in” to these dark ages barbarians. Islam wants to conquer the world so that a few can enrich themselves and dictate and enslave others. That is why they hide behind their religious beliefs so that their ideology is acceptable to the muslim masses. Throughout the ages Islam has fought the West but it has never succeeded. It is too evil. Now they are trying another tactic ..that of a silent invasion (immigration) of other countries and the West, in the name of democracy, allows them to do whatever they want and accepts their demands to take away other people’s religious symbols and beliefs. A few weeks ago, while in the USA, a manager at Walmart Co. was dismissed because when he saw two full-burka-clad (face fully covered as well)ladies walking through his store, he was overheard PRIVATELY, to his assistant or member of staff as saying..”Halloween has come early this year” . If this remark had been made to a non-muslim, it would have been ignored or laughed at..like when I tried on a Blonde wig..I was told that I looked silly in it and more like a hooker.. Anyway the ladies that like the burka say so because they don’t know any better..Yet once they get off the planes from various Arab countries, they are the first to go to the restrooms and take them off.

  105. Ol Pliny.. and I have met women in the full burka with only eyes showing who chose to dress that way and LOVE it..
    It takes all kinds hey?

  106. Ol' Pliny says:

    Hi Gill,
    A few swallows do not a summer make.
    Like some of our own abused ladies, some of them are rather ugly,
    smell like a racehorse and have rotten teeth.
    In such cases the burka protects them, er, and us as well.
    May you be blessed for the love you have for the poor neglected souls. amen.

  107. *LOLOl’Pliny!
    You too.. be muchly blessed and may the filly you back have lovely teeth and a truly gorgeous soul

  108. Did you guys not read thevarious books written by MUSLIM WOMEN AND WHITE WOMEN WHO DIVORCED MUSLINM MEN?They`re containing very chilling and scary details.

    The burkas are hiding the faces of girls and women who are smuggled to them since most of these womn we are told are matrried to them are actually former domestics and prostitutes and just desperate rural women.These arevirtual slaves who have no rights where even their children refer to them with their shortened first names i.e if its Elizabeth the children will just refe to her as Liz…

    These women do give me a sore heart and to see them concealing their pains with faked smile.What`s also sad it that they get nothing for their years of slavery but a slap in the face wher when the husband dies they are kicked-out of the house by the children because the husband left it with them.

  109. Tim – reminds me of the Elizabeth Smart kidnap case. Remember how that religious fanatic walked about with her and his wife, both veiled… that poor child not able to reveal herself. *shivers*

  110. Ol' Pliny says:

    To make proselytes, a religion must go beyond mere promising words.
    There is a glaring fact which needs to be considered: How do Moslems prove
    that their Mohammed was either a prophet or leader sent by God. Most
    prophets of the Bible performed miracles and Elijah even restored life to a
    young boy. Even some apostles performed miracles.

    Moses had to perform a number of miracles before Pharaoh, climaxing at the parting of the
    red sea. Joshua, who later led the Israelites, did something similar at the Jordan river.
    God expressly wanted to prove to both his people and their enemies that he empowers his
    servants the prophets to carry out their missions. Jesus did the same by healing the blind and
    deaf, and raising a few after they died. All miracles performed by those sent by god had a
    purpose. None were simple acts of magic to impress people.

    The above have been the challenges of critics during Mohammed’s lifetime. He is believed
    to have responded by saying that the purpose of not giving signs was to test their faith.
    In later years Mohammedans claimed that their prophet did in fact perform miracles, and
    said that he cleft the moon asunder in the valley of Mecca. Others have translated this as
    something that will happen in the future. The following is a word for word extract in precise
    format as in my copy of the Arab/English interlinear at Sura 54:1,2 Page 1454 (1967)

    1. The hour (of Judgement)
    Is nigh, and the moon
    Is cleft asunder.
    2. But if they see
    A sign, they turn away,
    And say, “This is
    (But) transient magic.

    Footnote 5128 claims that there are three explanations of this, and it is possible that
    Mohammed did in fact see the moon split in two.
    The Bible also speaks of signs in the heavenly bodies at Luke 21:25; Acts 2:19,10), but these
    also include the other heavenly bodies, IE: Sun, stars and the earth.

  111. OL PLINY WHATEVER MAKES YOU HAPPY,
    AND I ONLY TYPE IN CAPS, I AINT TRYN TA BE FORCEFULL
    LET ME TELL YOU WHAT GOD TOLD MUHAMMAD PBUH REGARDING MIRACLES, HE SAID THAT HIS MIACLE WOULD BE THE QURAAN, IT WOULD LAST FOREVER IN ITS ORIGNAL FORM, ON THAT BASES NO OTHER PROPHETS MIRACLE WAS AS GREAT, THIS MIRACLE IS LASTING TILL TODAY, EVEN IF YOU DESTROY EVERY QURAAN, IT WILL NOT BE THE END, AS THEIR ARE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND US WHO HAVE LEARNT THE ENTIRE QURAAN BY MEMORY, CHILDREN AS LITLE AS 6 YEARS HAVE ALSO ACOMPLISHED SUCH A TASK OF PROTECTING THE QURAAN, UNLIKE THE CHRISTIANS WHO HAVE A THOUSAND EDITIONS AND NO IDEA WHICH PART IS MADE UP OR WHICH PART WAS DEVINE

  112. GOOGLE NAEEMA B ROBERTS WHO HAS CONVERTED TO ISLAAM SEE HER VIEW ON THE VEIL
    SHE HAS RITTEN A BOOK AS WELL : FROM MY SISTERS LIPS

  113. I SPELT IT WRONG HER NAME IS
    Na’ima B. Roberts

    Covered from head to toe, with only her eyes visible, a covered Muslim woman on a Western city street rarely fails to provoke a strong reaction. Feelings of shock, horror, repulsion, pity or even fear are not uncommon. But have you ever wondered about the woman ‘behind the veil’? Have you ever wondered what her life is really like and how her hopes, dreams and aspirations differ from yours? Now, in From My Sisters’ Lips, Na’ima B. Robert offers a rare glimpse into the lives of a community of women, most of whom are converts to Islam, and invites you to share their joys, sorrows, convictions and faith.

    http://www.nbrobert.com/

  114. Haffy…. my 4 year old can recite his entire book of nursery rhymes. Ask him what they mean, and he has NO idea.
    See what I am getting at?

  115. I believe it’s a good read, Haffy ( Na’ima Roberts) I must get it

  116. Ol' Pliny says:

    Dare tell the Dispatch that a dog just bit a man.
    The joke will travel to every Newspaper in the world.
    The old press adage being “News is when a man bites a dog.”
    Now if Haffy will please stop telling us how many convert to Islam.
    The Dispatch will only print it if you place it in a PREpaid advert.

    But, tell them of just one Mohammedan who converted to Christianity,
    made it known in a Muslim country, and escaped alive.
    It will be surely be on the front page. (Perhaps in the ‘Odd Spot’)
    It’s the Islamic culture to stop the rot in it’s tracks as a warning to all.

  117. Lol!!

  118. gill,ol`pinny-you`re freally handling this topic excellently and I really appreciate your contribution.

    the first comment is really scary and one is left asking what its real meaning is;that Zapiro is sentencexd to death in absentia?By whom?

  119. Ol' Pliny says:

    Tim, ‘odium theologicum’ is the latin phrase describing the bitter hatred of rival
    religions. The belief being; No wars as sanguinary as holy wars. (EG: Jihads,
    and the crusades) No persecutions as relentless as that of the religions. No hatred
    as bitter as found among theologians.

    This goes back to the dark ages when people were burnt at the stake with their Bible chained
    around their necks. Religious wars just keep on and on. Recently Northern Irish terrorism was
    religiously based on the differences between Catholics and Protestants.
    In India it’s between the Sikhs and Hindus and began circa 1840.
    In the Middle East it’s Palestinians versus Jews.

    How ironic that during the ‘International Year of Peace’ in 1986 over 400 delegates
    from nearly every church gathered at Assissi (Rome) to pray for world peace.
    Can you believe it! The delegates were dressed in all manner of habit from robes,
    sackcloth and designer suits, to headwear ranging from mitres, the taqiyah and the kippah.

    Each delegate took turns to pray in the name of his God. Well, one cannot really say that God
    was deaf, but you could say that he ignored them all – big and small- short and tall.
    The following year (1987) the number of conflicts throughout the world increased by twenty.

    Now hear what could be the outcome of this chaotic situation:
    On one side you have the above ‘never ending story’ of perpetual religious warfare.
    On the other, you have the United Nations, who have the objective to create world peace.
    How long do you think the latter are going to put up with this?
    If the churches and their Gods cannot do anything, surely they will have to step in.
    There is only one thing they can do, and you better be ready when they get down to it.

  120. Magnifient post Ol’Pliny.. *applause*
    One thing..
    United Nations is a sham. Its weak, its spineless and it always will be. They have shown that they bow to the highest bidder, and their masters are heavily biased and sympathetic towards the evil players in the Middle East

  121. Ol' Pliny says:

    Thanks Tim and Gill. However, everyone here contributes to the knowledge of all.
    (even if it’s not to do or say that which issues from them) Learn perhaps from this:
    A man kneels before a foreign king, and humbly delivers a sealed letter from
    his own king. After reading it the infuriated king orders his guards to execute the
    hapless messenger. Now, how will that solve whatever situation led to an attempt
    to resolve matters between the kings. Hence the saying, “Don’t shoot the messenger”

    Learn at times from ‘tell it like it is’ Dirkie who said: “The prophets of …the Bible were…
    REAL prophets and…had no followers.” True, but why not? Firstly, it goes against human
    nature to listen to things which imply changes to their culture and traditions. (Math 15:3-6)
    For this reason, the Jews never followed prophets – they murdered them. Read Matthew
    Chapter 5:12 and 23:31; 35, 37 Secondly, a slave is no greater than his master. (John 13:16)
    Sensible people follow the one who sent the messenger rather than worship his messenger.

    The result of this great affection for their prophet divided the Moslems into sects. For instance the
    Shiites and the Sunnis argued over who would be Mohammed’s successors. And that dear
    friend, is how all the Caliphs came into being. Each claiming to be his lawful descendants.

    The split caused indignation, which eventually resulted in enmity between the sects, hence the
    drawn out wars between Iran and Iraq, and the oppression and murder of the Kurds in Iraq.
    The word ‘Islam’ from the Arabic root ‘Salema’ means peace. What a misnomer. Perhaps ‘Fitan’
    from the Arabic word for ‘Chaos or Upheaval may suit the situation we see in the middle east.
    They have been at loggerheads since their civil war in 656. The struggle for the caliphate.
    God does not even allow men to worship angels. (Read Revelation 19:9,10)

    The ultimate purpose of Islam, in the words of their prophet: “Religion should be only for Allah”
    Does it really make sense for them to believe that Allah is the God of Abraham, yet carry on with their
    ultimate purpose to destroy both Judaism and Christianity who also claim to serve the same God of
    Abraham Isaac and Jacob? Why not rather leave it God to decide what he wants.

    In the meanwhile, stick to what you truly believe, and speak out against anything that you feel is an
    insult to the teachings to the god you serve, but do it peacefully. (1 Pet 3:15)
    And that dear friend is the best you can do to silence other violent and oppressive religions.

  122. Tim
    No death sentences please… we avitar faced people are all Kumbaya kids *LOL*
    What I really want is that sometime Zapiro shows his support for Israel.There is something obscene about a self loathing Jew..

  123. Ol Pliny – you are a breath of fresh air!!

  124. Ol`piny

    As you have already asserted that muslims don`t want to debate doubts and suspicions about their religion the auspicious absence of their voices here is indicative!

    We need however to give bouquets to the blogger here for her tolerancy and openness since she is a muslim !Also,what I don`t get is;why is the media no grabbing the bull by its horns and get answers from the leadership because if something is reported about Catholic the media goes straight to the top echelons of the Roman Catholic Church and demand their comment!

  125. Ol' Pliny says:

    Tim, we all love and defend our faiths, but should never say disparaging things
    about the beliefs of others. Some of them may be ill informed, whereas others
    are under pressure to fight to the death to protect theirs. Remember this:
    “Persuasion is stronger than force.”
    The absence of their voices could well be frustration. Give credit where due.

    Muslims were highly admired shortly after it’s appearance in the seventh century AD. They learnt
    much from the Nestorians, (Pre-Constantinople) and by the ninth century Arab scientists were way
    ahead of the followers of Christendom in the West. Even the crusaders were impressed by what
    they saw and learned from Islamic culture. Their scientists were miles ahead of the rest of the
    world. On their return, the crusaders reported that they now held “a host of new impressions.”
    Reference: “The Encyclopedia of Religion.” Sadly, their warmongering priests preferred to
    eradicate them.

    Muslims originally had much respect for Christians and Jews, and they lived peacefully together.
    It was due to the crusades that the situation changed, and it’s hard to blame them. But the fact remains
    that they have mostly been brain washed to hate Christianity which is now branded into their hearts.

    As a young man, every day after school I went to the Port Elizabeth library until late. At first it was
    animal stories like Kazan and Grey Wolf, then adventure like Coral Island and Gorilla hunters.
    In high school my fancy changed to poetry and classics. Among the latter, the greatest was “Arabian
    Nights”. I just loved those Persians, Turks and Arabs. When you have time get hold of a copy of that
    book. Scheherazade was the 3001st wife of the king, and her life depended on entertaining him for
    1001 nights. Each night she told a new adventure, and eventually survived. You’ll love it.
    It really is sad that Blacks never had the literary opportunities we had. It’s not too late to start.

  126. Thompson says:

    AS MUCH AS WE SPEAK ABOUT FREEDOM OF THIS AN THAT,WE SHOULD ALLOW JONATHAN TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS.IF THE MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT MOHAMMED IS THE SERVANT OF THEIR ALLAH THEN THEY SHOULD LIVE THE PUNISHMENT TO HIM.I BELIEVE GOD SHOULD FIGHT FOR ME NOT ME FOR HIM.IF I FIGHT ON BEHALF OF GOD WOULD THAT NOT MAKE ME SEEM SUPERIOR TO HIM.IS THERE ANY NEED FOR ME TO SERVE ONE WHO CANNOT STAND FOR SELVE.LET THE MUSLIMS BE CONCERN BUT THEMSELVES NOT MUHAMMED OR ALLAH.

  127. Ol' Pliny says:

    Tim and Gill, note how we learn from each other, EG: Thompson’s post.
    True! Religions need to leave warfare to their God, otherwise they would
    be murderers and nothing less. By reading the exploits of Joshua on the way
    to the promised land we learn that it was God who fought their wars.
    The land was their heritage invaded by Canaanite squatters. Seemingly, God had previously
    warned them to get out and, being patient, set a time limit which they ignored. (Gen 15:16)

    The Israelites were told to first seek peace with the invaders, and attack only if they resisted.
    Should they yield they would have saved themselves. It was God who brought down the walls
    of Jericho and fought all their wars. Joshua was merely God’s spokesman in those wars.
    However, in later years, as Israel became apostate, he no longer fought their wars.

    God was also at peace with the other nations in the vicinity, and he warned the Israelites that he
    would not fight for them if they attacked the places he had set aside for other nations.
    He specifically named those places. He also told them to avoid conflict with the Phillistines.

    God never ordered Christians to become involved in any type of warfare. (Matt 26:52, 53)
    The apostle Paul said: “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling
    down strongholds, casting down arguments, and every high thing that exalts itself against the
    knowledge of God.” (2 Cor 10:4.5) This means that we should be ‘defenders’ of the faith by way
    of reasoning with others rather than by using force.

    Thanks Thompson, you spoke wisely by saying that if we fight for God we make ourselves
    superior to him. This brings to mind Jeremiah chapter ten. God belittled the idols and the gods
    of the nations. “They cannot stand on their own, but have to be tied down in case they fall. They
    have to be carried around because they cannot walk.” This can be applied as good advice to
    all religions that have to make spears, arrows and human bombs to protect their God.

  128. sorry,haffy!when it come to trhat i`m not interested because you have said the same thing to us about women suicide bombers but it turned its kidnapped and coerced women who are threaned with the demise of their families if they don`t carry out the mission!

    Here man we are not on about one aspect of the religion but the entire religion!Why do you guys resort to calling detractors dead meat than facing up to thdem and debate.why is it that in this religion you haver notorious drug dealers and mafiasd like chabaan and gangsters and terrorists etcwhich make it look like a home for all unsavioury characters!

  129. Ol' Pliny says:

    Whether Haffy is a Mullah or Maulvi or considers himself to be the Grand Vizier
    of Islam, he’s done a bad job. Discounting threats, we see nothing significant
    in his representations. Just plain propaganda as was broadcast by Russian radio
    uring the 50′s. Their announcers all spoke in an American twang, as if to say,
    “Come join us Yanks who saw the light, moved here, and are now free.”
    Being much younger, it almost made me a sucker.

    Here’s one of Haffy’s examples of how Mohammedans try to cover up their faith.
    (annoying capitals reduced to lower case)
    “(the) task of protecting the Quraan, unlike the Christians who have a thousand editions and no idea
    which part is made up or which part was devine.”

    Haffy, Joseph Smith claimed the angel Moroni (I think) gave him two goldem plates and a pair
    of enormous reading glasses with which only he (Smith) would be able to see through to read
    what was written on the plates. Smith then wrote the book of Mormon in which he also tried to
    to discredit the Bible: “A Bible I have” says the fool, not realising that having spoken before,
    can I not again write.” Would you believe that ?

    Your Koran was written nineteen years after your prophet died. Before that, whatever he said was
    either memorised or written on pieces of wood or on camel bones. The accuracy of the Bible has
    been in dispute before, but later archeological discoveries revealed that much Bible history had
    it first before revealed in unearthed prisms, tablets and other inscriptions.

    The dead sea scrolls found circa 1956, were as accurate as the earliest known writings. God will
    never allow any person or demon to destroy or change his written word. The Jewish sopherim
    scribes dreaded anthromorphism (attributing human qualities to God) When they made copies of
    the scriptures and came across these, they would change it, EG:

    Zechariah 2:8 says: “…for he that is touching you is touching my eyeball.” The presumptuos blighters
    changed this to “…for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.” This change effectively lessened God’s concern for his people. So what did God do about that?? Firstly, ask yourself why
    did Jesus condemn both the Scribes and the Pharisees.

    A while after Jesus time, the Masoretes began copying the scriptures. By that time a large number of
    manuscripts came to be in their hands. It came to their notice that the Sopherin scribes had left
    margins (masora) in some of their copies. The purpose of the margins was possibly inspired, or they
    themselves had guilty consciences about changing things. (See Deut 4:1,2)

    When the Masorete scribes made copies, they restored the original wording. Most modern Bible translations of the Bible use the Masoretic text. That dear friends, is how God protects his word.

    Haffy, the Koran remains written in Arabic because it is designed for Arabs.Those who convert
    to Islam are forced to change their name to an Arabic one, EG: Muhammed Ali the boxer, or
    Yusuf Ali we once knew as Cat Stevens. (Of Mathew and Son fame)
    Tell me someone out there, if this is not a racist move.
    Not all Christians speak English – hence the ‘thousand editions’ Haffy mentions.

  130. …and to think this all started with a Jewish guy drawing a picture of The Prophet M lying on a psychiatrist’s couch!
    By the way – if the Prophet had a little boy… would he have made a ‘little profit”

  131. Ol' Pliny says:

    Gill, you said something like “Nothing worse than a self loathing Jew.”
    We have a Jew in the cabinet who does the same, by supporting the Palestinians
    against his brothers in Israel. As a minister paid by the government, it seems he
    finds it profitable to support the darker side of Abraham’s two seeds.

    My lineage includes the Irish and the Afrikaner, and although I never supported apartheid, it would
    be unthinkable to denounce my heritage. They gave me life, education and culture.

    Today: “and to think this all started with a Jewish guy drawing a picture of The Prophet M
    lying on a psychiatrist’s couch!” I don’t really think any of us here are trying to support Zapiro.
    We support mainly his democratic right to safely offer an opinion in a free country.
    I laugh at his funny cartoons, because he has a great sense of humour. But I despise him as an
    arrogant person. He backed down and apologised when the heat was on.

    Although not an ANC supporter, my impression of Zuma is a lot better. He may be a casanova
    and has made a few silly utterances, but he is really a gentleman by comparison. He even had
    chats with the Afrikaners and spoke admiringly of them as being part of South Africa.
    Zapiro takes liberties in mocking the deformity of Zuma’s head. Shower on, shower hovering
    and shower back. Gentelman Zuma kindly ignores him. Bravo Zuma, keep up our respect.

    Malema came near to closing down Nando’s, but they ‘chickened’ out. (Pun intended)
    I’ll bet you ten Nando’s packs to your McDonald’s hamburger, that Zapiro would be on his way
    to Israel if Malema became president – er, that is, if Home office give him a passport.

    No! Let me take that back. The Jews are really the strongest, bravest and most industrial nation
    on this planet. With their Kibutzes they turned a barren Palestine into an oasis. The six-day
    middle east wars was won hands down. When the arabs fled, they left a mountain of shoes and
    sandals in the desert.

    What other nation has ever achieved a similar miracle as they did when they flew across africa
    in a jet, landed at Entebbe airport, rescued their citizens and returned safe.
    ‘The movie ‘Saving private Ryan’ fades by comparison.

    The Jews may no longer be God’s chosen people, but the effects of the culture God gave them
    has lasted down to this day. For this reason, it really pains me to speak ill of Zapiro.

  132. Oh Ol’Pliny…. I salute you sir.. you are AWESOME!!!!!!!

  133. Ol' Pliny says:

    Seemingly we have all run out of worthwhile comments. It surprised me that,
    contrary to expectations, Haffy behaved very well considering the odds against him.
    His opinions were was never really nasty or threatening. Let’s pat him on the back.
    As far as I’m concerned, Muslims are far more spiritual than most Christian
    religions where their flocks mostly worship only on one day of the week.

    We may say they are too violent, but are not all other nations? George Dubya Bush had no reason
    to go to war against Iraq. The hypocrites initially supplied Iraq with arms in their battle against
    Iran. U.S. soldiers were mere pawns who offered their bodies as an unwilling sacrifice in a war
    not their own. Do you remember Ali Muhammed’s famous words when they called him up for
    military service, “I aint got nothing against them Vietkong. The chaotic situation in Iraq now
    appears to be irreversible. The world was fairly stable until Osama bin Laden came on the scene.

    Whether one loves or hates the Jews, most believe that they have the right to live in the land
    set aside for them by the United Nations in 1948. The poor devils had been scattered around
    the world since the first century. They were objects of hatred by nearly every nation, in which
    they lived as alien residents. Yet, no one can deny that they are survivors. They endured every
    possible type of persecution wherever they went, and even survived the holocaust in Germany.
    The main reason being that they are a united race which supports their weaker brothers.
    Something the West has yet to learn. In the US and in most of the worls, wealth and opportunity
    is mostly in the hands of the Jews. It was so in South Africa way back in the 50′s.

    The reason that there is so much hatred for the Muslims is simply because they refuse to abide by
    the noblest of all human principles. Live and let live. In 1961 nearly every Arab nation around
    them, as well as the Egyptians attacked them in an effort to destroy them. Their purpose remains.

    Never was there any objection when the Palestinians took over the vacated holy land. Not even the Jews objected to Muslims building a mosque on the most sacred of Jewish sites, where God’s holy
    temple once stood. If only Haffy would only accept all this, it would be nice to part as friends.

  134. Ol’ Pliny , THE MURDER OF THE KURDISH BY SADAM HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR BELEIFS, THE KURDS ARE AN ETHNIC GROUP WHO ARE SUNNI BY BELIEF, SADAM AND THE KURDS HAD MUTUAL HATRED FOR EACH OTHER BASED ON TRIBAL DIFERENCES, HE PERSECUTED THEM, THEY TRIED TO ASASINATE HIM, HE MASACRED THEM, BUT THEY WERE CLOSER TO HIM IN RELIGION THAN THE THE SHIAS

  135. Well said Ol’Pliny.
    Your words are so wise, and so measured. You write not to win points but to win hearts. You have won mine.
    ?

  136. outside Africa says:

    Ol’ Pliny et al:
    I have been bemused by your pontifications : ) Perhaps a bit hung up on certain semantics here and there? Do I detect a hint of pride, a note of antisemitism? Why despise Zapiro? Is he any worse than any of us? We are to look to our own salvation through Jesus Christ. Many Jews, and even Muslims, have had their eyes and ears opened and are coming to Christ even now. And we are to keep on praying for them. Although a difficult book, I would suggest a thorough study of Romans – especially chapter 11. v 1 , 11, 25-26 are very clear. Israel will be restored.

  137. Ol' Pliny says:

    OS Africa, some like you, interpret the Bible according to the way they prefer it to
    have been written. Did you know that when King James authorised the 1611 Bible,
    his bishops told him that the book of Revelation was horrifying, and they wish it
    had never been written. (Reference: “Power and Glory”, Adam Nicholson 2002)

    By saying “Israel will be restored.” indicates the copy-cat expression of those who do not fully
    understand God’s purposes. In other words, ‘Apartheid is dead’ The Hebrew system of things, as
    the apostle Paul explained, was a shadow of the reality to come,, IE: The Christ. The purpose of
    the temple in Israel with it’s sacrifices are no longer necessary since Christ’s sacrifice became
    the reality. There is no longer a need for God to prove how he will protect his people.

    To restore Israel would mean restoring the temple which Jesus said would be torn down.
    Paul, when talking to the Galatians, (Non-Jews) said there is no longer Jew or Greek.
    (God is impartial) He said to the Galatians, “You are now the Israel of God.
    (Gal 3:28, 6:16) What purpose would it be to re-install Israel when their house was abandoned
    to them? (Matt 23:38)

  138. Ol' Pliny says:

    Hi Os (S.A.) I hurried through that last post as my car was running hot and I
    was running late. Firstly, in which post do you detect, as you say,
    “a note of antisemitism” ? Not even Haffy hinted on that.
    I dislike people reading in my posts things not implied.

    If you read our messages carefully, you’d have detected ‘a tome of prosemitism’.
    If I believed God intended to restore Israel, by now I’d already have my kibbutz in Israel. Respect
    for Jews may be diminished in some countries, but admiration is higher. The Jews are industrious,
    whereas, take away the Arab oil, and the situation with most will become one nomad one camel.
    The only thing that grows in their countries is animostly and prejudice.
    Ag, man, I’m just being nasty – but it’s true.

    By the way, I was not being harsh in my previous post. It’s called ‘shock treatment’
    That’s still the best way to get people to stop – read again – and wake up.
    This here oke was once even more ignorant as far as religion is concerned. So, I asked myself:

    Why are there so many churches, each claiming the be right, yet only one Bible.
    So, I decided to study (Note! – not read up) every religious organisation possible.
    Was my eyes opened? Hoo boy, it wasn’t long before it became clear that you can eliminate
    many just by counting the size of the plate and regularity in which it is passed around.
    Now, please don’t ask me which religions are are wrong. My calling is to rather sort out the
    wheat from the chaff, establish what is right, and pass it on to whoever appears to be confused.

  139. My points regarding Jon Zapiro:
    He’s brilliant yes. But his knowledge of the facts sometimes is scant to say the least. E.G. He once did a cartoon showing that the 6 Day War in Israel in 1967 was started by Israel when we know that it was not so. When challenged, he stoutly stuck to his guns. The ombudsman of the M&G awarded in his favour, and said “It’s his interpretation of the facts as he sees them” which made me crazy and mad!! It’s like looking at rockets falling on S Israel and blaming the Israelis.

  140. Ol' Pliny says:

    Gill, I believe you are right – Praising my posts helped me decide – joke!
    I clearly remember taking note of the situation leading up to the 6 day war. Proof
    that I never researched the matter beforehand can be seen by the fact that I said
    it began in 1961 – Thanks for the update to 1967. Perhaps the date of the decimal
    change over came to mind.

    Tensions were running high and the anti-semitism was clearly evident to all. At no time did Israel
    threaten Palestinians. They were always on the defensive. Perhaps due to their Yankie advisors,
    who we all know kept them heavily armed. American intelligence and surveillance was very
    advanced at the time, yet still very clandestine. So, if Israel did attack first, it could have been
    because an onslaught was eminent. They were possibly forewarned. Like when a crook pulls out
    his gun, the cop doesn’t stand and wait for the first bullet to hit him in the head.

    But Israel never ‘started’ the war, and that I know for sure. Don’t worry about what the krombudsman said
    on the matter. It would have been silly for Israel to attack so many countries against them.
    Yet, like a cornered lion – they had more adrenalin flowing than the starving Arabs.

  141. Ol' Pliny says:

    Shulltz, I have found it. Damn those old adverts that come to mind.
    Gill, I decided to look this up on the net.Goggle ‘Six day war’ then select the prompt
    below, IE: ‘Six day war summary’
    Here’s part of it:

    The Six-Day War took place in June 1967. The Six-Day War was fought between June 5th and June 10th.
    The Israelis defended the war as a preventative military effort to counter what the Israelis saw as an
    impending attack by Arab nations that surrounded Israel. The Six-Day War was initiated by General
    Moshe Dayan (He who looked like Nelson) the Israeli’s Defence Minister.

    The war was against Syria, Jordan and Egypt. Israel believed that it was only a matter of time before the
    three Arab states co-ordinated a massive attack on Israel. After the 1956 Seuz Crises the United Nations
    had established a presence in the Middle East, especially at sensitive border areas. The United Nations
    was only there with the agreement of the nations that acted as a host to it. By May 1967, the Egyptians
    had made it clear that the United Nations was no longer wanted in the Suez region.

    Gamal Nasser, leader of Egypt, ordered a concentration of Egyptian military forces in the sensitive
    Suez zone. This was a highly provocative act and the Israelis only viewed it one way – that Egypt was
    preparing to attack. The Egyptians had also enforced a naval blockade which closed off the Gulf of Aqaba
    to Israeli shipping.

    The way I explained it was mostly correct.

  142. Ol ‘Pliny.. all correct EXCEPT what many people fail to recognise. The Straits of Tiran were closed by Egypt, and that was a declaration of war according to the rules of war. (shakes head and rolls eyes) By shutting the Straits – Israel then legally had the right to fire the first shot which was the beginning the 6 Day war. Many say Israel started it.. but they retaliated to the closing of the Straits.

  143. outside Africa says:

    June 28th. Ol’Pliny et al:
    Hi there Ol’Pliny, My goodness, you certainly went off on a tangent! I wonder what button I pushed?
    You stated that you do not like people reading into your posts things not implied. Why then is it acceptable for you to do that to others?
    Are you a mind reader that you can know how/if I interpret the Bible and would have ‘preferred’ it to be written? I experience you as rather presumptuous in your judgments i.e ‘copy-cat expressions’ etc. You are the one doing too much reading into what others write, especially where the conversations are not face to face and therefore more tolerance is called for. Hiding in the anonymity of cyberspace gives people bravado they don’t otherwise have.
    Where as I did not accuse you of being antisemitic or prideful, I asked a question, which you were free to clarify with an honest answer. Which Gill did.
    I kindly suggest you do further study on the real meaning of the Restoration of Israel as a Nation. Scholars agree to differ somewhat on the exact interpretation of Romans 11v25-26. However, if you are of an orthodox Christian persuasion, and think you would like to add to your all ready vast source of knowledge, I could recommend some credible apologists whom you can look up on the internet and benefit from. Among others are Dr. R.C. Sproul, Dr. Norman Geisler, Dr. Ron Rhodes, Dr. Ravi Zacharias. Thomas Howe etc.
    As to sorting the wheat from the chaff, in the parable of the Tares among the Wheat in Matthew 13:24-30, Jesus said to allow them to grow together (29) lest you root up the wheat with them. And in Matthew 3:12 John said Jesus will gather the wheat with His winnowing fork. I don’t think the sorting is your job. Ag man, I know you mean well, but you blow your own vuvuzela too much. As a woman, I recognize the male ego : )
    Now I don’t spend a lot of time reading and writing comments on Wonkie, and I am certainly not out to change your mind for you, so you don’t have to go off on another tangent. Alles van die beste : )

  144. Ol' Pliny says:

    OS Africa, big names in the ‘God business’ impress me the least. In which respect
    call me a God ‘copy-cat’ The angel at Jesus birth never went to the most learned
    among the Jews, but to lowly shepherds. Jesus later chose as his disciples, some
    fishermen, and denounced the Pharisees with enlarged scripture carrying cases.

    It’s amusing to read how you support those with doctorates in divinity. Isaiah denounced the D.D. at
    Isa 56:10 as Dumb Dogs. Dumb in the way that they fail to warn people of dangers, as dogs should.

    This is exactly why Muslims mock Christianity. Aspiring custodians of God’s word attend various
    seminars and universities to study the Bible to earn titles. Clutching their diplomas they seek out an
    existing sect, or form their own. These 19 main stream churches and over 10,000 home made ones
    explain the Babel (Babylon) that Christendom became.

    The fact that neither Jesus or his apostles needed religious education stymied their observers.
    (Matt 11;24.25; John 7:15; Acts 4:13; 2 Cor 3:1)

    Finally, may I suggest that its your type that stop people from studying the Bible, because you have
    created the impression that they need not know the truth as it is beyond them should they not have
    scholarship. In other words, you are saying, “Just listen to me and do whatever I tell you.”
    How utterly contemptuous of God to lead people off into destruction. True, some churches do hold
    Bible studies, but it’s milk, little different from what children learn at Sunday schools. (Heb 5:11-14)

  145. I almost objected loudly to that bloke`s comparing me to OL`PINY BUT SO AS NOT TO SPOIL THINGS i BACKED-OFF BUT AGAIN i THINK ITS BETTER TO CLARIFY ISSUES.

    Me and ol`piny are poles apart because we are not compatriots but black and white.ol`piny belong to white secret societies and clubs where issues pertaining to white power,and black usurping and subjugation are discussed so he will never agree with me on the same subject .for an example the afrikaners are pro-palestine in the gaza strip and pro-saddam in iraq and this is in line with their religious or christian politics against non-afrikaner white rulers.My interest in muslims is borne by their antagonism towards blacks and too its more personal and so ol`piny won`t back me on this one because he`ll be happy to hear that we are not brothers as leaders always shout and so harbour one side and lonuge it against the other!do i make myself clear here?

  146. outside Africa says:

    Old Pliny – you just don’t get!

  147. outside Africa.. what doesn’t Ol’Pliny get?

  148. Ol' Pliny says:

    Tim, the only club I’ve ever belonged to was a book club. Nor did I belong to any secret
    society, or vote for any government. Nor am I prothis or prothat. Rather rate me among
    the anti-hypocrisy and anti-violence. If that is what makes you say we are ‘poles apart’,
    well then pal, it is you who created the gap. I prefer to remain on the side of truth,
    fairness and righteousness, and with those who share those ideals.

    Now, if you read carefully between those lines, you will find that I cannot be blamed for apartheid, nor for the
    current situation of crime, suffering and unemployment. The only white power I have ever loved, was the
    power in the white crest of the waves from Nahoon reef to Jeffery’s Bay until recently when Anton deVos
    was killed by a shark at Gonubie point. I was there that day and although still fit, have since chickened out.

  149. outside Africa says:

    Gill: it seems neither do you!

  150. Ol' Pliny says:

    My apologies for the erratic line feeds in a few past messages. Possibly my word
    processer was at fault. It happens after posting.
    Gill, ignore OS Africa. She is possibly a minister herself or it runs in the family.

    Do you recall my message about how God ignored the efforts of various religious organisations
    during the 1986 International Year of Peace? They really tried to compromise their beliefs.
    Was this any different from the ANC (or the DA) who struck up alliances in order to gain power.
    It’s really filthy politics based on ‘Win at all costs’. Most churches at one time breathed fire and
    brimstone messages from the pulpit denouncing ‘the works of the flesh’ (Gal 5:19)

    As modernity advanced, they felt obliged to capitulate – especially in sexual matters. But then, they
    had a hard time convincing their more moderate brothers, and that is how interfaith kicked off.
    They had to find a common ground, good or bad, between themselves and their former enemies.
    Their latest interfaith conference in New york, 2008 refers. As usual, all manner of robes,
    headwear crosses, dog collars and other ornamental paraphernalia, decorated the delegates.
    Here is an extract:

    “Saudi Arabia’s King Abdulla sat in the same room with Israeli political leaders for the first time
    ever, during the UN Interfaith conference held in New York, US. Writing at Arabic Media Shack,
    Rob highlights reactions from a few Egyptian newspapers, on how this historic meeting would
    impact the Arab-Israeli peace process.

    At the blog, which describes itself as a non-partisan site which analyzes political, strategic, and
    security issues of the Middle East, Rob states: Fahmy Huwedi and Tariq Al-Bashri, top Egyptian
    commentators, have scathing columns in today’s Al-Dostor, criticizing the King for refusing to
    bring up violence in Gaza while handing the Israelis a major PR victory.

    Bashri goes as far to say that the King sitting in the same room as Peres is no less significant as
    Sadat visiting Jerusalem in 1977. However, he then goes on to undermine the credibility of his
    argument by saying that the US and Israel are behind attempts to instigate Sunni-Shia conflict in
    order to create a new enemy or distraction for the Arabs, so that they no longer focus on Israel.

    He compares this to how the US allegedly instigated conflict between Libya and Egypt following
    the Camp David treaty, creating a “new enemy” for the Egyptians other than Israel. How can the
    US can be blamed for instigating Sunni-Shia strife when the top Sunni scholars, such as Yusuf
    Al-Qaradawi, have been the most vocal in their anti-Shia rhetoric.” (unquote)

    Read more if you like. Google ‘Interfaith conference 2008′
    Iv’e said it a few times before and repeat it again. The churches of Christendom, the Hindi,
    Muslims, Sikhs, and all other religions have far more power over their flocks that does any
    government on earth. All they needed to do was to tell them to refuse to take part in warfare.
    This would have achieved peace because their strongest ally God would have supported them.
    But no, that will not suit them at all. The goverments will simply make them pay tax.

  151. Hi Outside Africa and hi Ol ‘pliny
    Sorry but I could not get bogged down in all this. I have no doubt it’s all deep and exciting and and and and…. but I can’t.
    I think both of you have provided some fascinating points, and I learn a lot from watching and taking it in. What I can contribute I do – but when it comes down to religion – I am sooooo not equipped. I am no good at that stuff.*LOL*
    Thank you both though
    Peace.. shalom.. salaam
    XX

  152. Ol' Pliny says:

    A post directed specifically to dear old Haffy, whom I’ve grown to like,
    although the true inclinations of his heart have escaped all attempts to unravel:
    If it’s the violence of your religion that attracts you, then you cannot be judged.
    The same exists in Christendom, but in the name of another God and prophet.

    Should you be seeking the purpose of life, why is Islam intent on destroying it?
    You may as well join Christendom who have far more experience in that field.

    If it’s peace you seek, then you may as well join the minority Budhists or Tibetans
    who in reality worship themselves. I.O.W. fleshly gods rather than any of spirit form.
    You will never find peace any where else in this world, neither in religion nor politics.

    Public enemy number one: Mankind himself, governed by greed, worshiping mundane things
    like the glitter of gold, power and glory?

    In the final analysis, the only time that peace will come to this planet, is when those three evils
    are removed. The monetary, religious, and all political systems.
    In other words, deflate inflation, give truth a chance and stop putting faith in human rulers.
    It’s coming, and it’s very near. Armageddon is my name. Totsiens, au revoir and fare the well.

  153. ol`piny!You said you admire Zuma because he visitexd “arme boers”whereas a colour and race-blind person would have pilloried and admoniosh him for his one-sided visit as opposed to vuisits to all members of our population.

    Its the first time I hear that there`s a independent white man because m understanding its that the past political situation in the country compelled whites to either be broederbond or freemasons which domineer,controlled and ruled the government of the NATS.

    wHAT ARE YOU DOING IN YOU CHURCH TO FOSTER UNITY,HARMONY AND GOOD RACE RELATIONS!aS THINGS STAND NOW IN SOUTH AFRICA ITS THAT WHITES HAVE MOBILISED THEMSELVES TO PREVENT BLACKS FROM BENEFITTING AND EMANCIPATED AND LIBERATED DO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THIS AND YOU ARE FOR IT?

  154. “Its the first time I hear that there`s a independent white man because m understanding its that the past political situation in the country compelled whites to either be broederbond or freemasons” Tim, WTF did you get this idea from? Please enlighten us.

  155. I am also goggling at the post about freemasons and broederbond~ not to mention how whites have mobilised to prevent blacks from benefitting etc.
    Am I lost in some time warp? Have I woken up in the 1950s?

  156. TJ,i DON`T KNOW HOW OLD ARE YOU AND i WILL ONLY REPLY TO YOU IF YOU`RE THE NEW GENERATION BECAUSE IF YOU ARE FROM THE OLD GUARD…YOU KNOW EXACTLY…WHAT I`M ON ABOUT HERE.

    wHITES WERE NOT DIRECTLY MEMBERS OF THE TWO BUT HAVE TO DO THINGS IN-LINE WITH THE PRINCIPLES AND PHILOSOPHIES OF THE TWO SECRET SOCIETIES.

    tHIS MEANT THAT WHATEVER THEY DO MUST HUMILIATE AND EMBARRASS THE BLACK MAN AND ENHANCE AND ELEVATE THE WHITE MAN.AN EXAMPLE ITS THAT WHITES WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE BLACKSD IN THE FRONT SEATS OF THEIR CARS UNLESS THEY HAVE GOOD REASON TO DO SO AND MUST SHOUT AT THEIR BLACK STAFF TO SHOW THAT THEY`RE NO FRIENDS OF BLACKS.

    THOSE WHO DID THINGS IN A WAY THAT SEEKS TO SHALL MAKE WHITES A LAUGHING STOCK IN THE EYES OF BLACKS WERE INVITED TO BROEDERBOND OR FREEMASONS MEETINGS AND WERE SHOWN GUINEA PIGS HOPW A BLACK MAN SHOULD BE TREATED AND IF THEY REMAIN DEFIANT THEN SONME FORM OF BOYCOTS WERE CONTEMPLATED.

    THE FREEMASONS WERE AN ENGLISH VERSION OF THE BROEDERBOND?THERE WAS NO WHITE INSTITUTIOPN IN THE PAST THAT DID NOT SUSCRIBE TO VERWOERDIAN POLICIES BY MEANS OF EMBRACING WHITENESS AND ITS SUPREMACISM.THAT`S WHERE THE LINE WAS DRAWN BETWEEN THE BLACK SASH AND THE RULERS OF THEN ERA.ALL THAT THEY WERE ASKED WAS;ARE THEY FOR BLACK MAJORITY RULE OR WHITE SUPREMACISM AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE NEVER TARGET OF STATE DIRTY TRICKS ITS OBVIOUS THAT THEY ANSWERED IN THE LATTER!

    AFTER THE FLIGHT OF WHITES FROM LOURENCO MARQUES BLACKS WERE CRYING FOUL OF THE FACT THAT TEY WERE BVGETTING FREE PERMITS,BUSINESSES,CHEQUE BOOKS,FLATS ETC SO I CAME TO DO SOCIOLOGY RESEARCH AND THIS WAS WHAT TOOK ME DEEP INTO THE LIVES OF WHITES.FOR AN EXAMPLE I DON`T ENGAGE WHITES AROUND THE NEGOTIATION TABLE BUT LET A WHITE WHO UNDERSTAND MY ASPIRATION DO SO.

    THE FACT THAT WHITES ATRE RESISTANT TO RECONCILIATION AND HEALING BY NO9T COMING UP WITTH PROJECTS LIKE THAT OF AMY BIEL`S PARENTS OR GREG BLANK IS AN INDICATION THAT THEY ARE HOSTILE TO BLACKS.

    THESE TRAMPS THEY TELL US ITS CAR-GUARDS,RUNAWAYS,HOMELESS AND JOBLESS ITS THEIR FOOTSOLDIERS TO DESTROY OR ANNIHILATE THE BLACKS OF THIS COUNTRY BY ROPING THEM INTO THEIR GANG{26-PRISON GANG}SO THAT BLACKS MUST BE GANGSTERISED AND SO APOLITICAL AND CONTAINED WHILE WHITES ENJOY THE LENGTH AND BREADTH OF SOUTH AFRICA.THEIR BUSSING OF THE FORMER ANTI-LIBERATION FORCESC EBNEMIES IN THE SADC REGION THEN CAMPAIGN THE GOVERNMENT TO GIVE THEM PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT OVER AND ABOVE BLACKS ITS AN INDICATION THAT WHITES MEANT IT WHEN THEY SAID THROUGH A LOCAL PAPER THAT BY 2014 FOREIGNERS WILL BE A DOMINANT FORCE IN THIS COUNTRY AND BLACKS RECDUCED INTO A MINORITY.DOES THIS IMPRESS OR NEED I SAY MORE?

  157. Gee whiz Tim, Goebbels would have been proud of you!!

  158. goebbels are these rulers and their sycophants and that`s why merkel prefer to cooperate with them the whole continent not me!i`m fighting injustices,inequalities and inhumanities as always my boy!!11

  159. we dnt mock yr religion,so y do u mock ours?hw would u like it if zapiro drew a cartoon about jesus?yeah, i thought so

  160. Ol' Pliny says:

    Mus: >> we dnt mock yr religion,so y do u mock ours?
    Gee Mus, you’re either a speed texter or, have a problem with vowels.
    Zapiro doesn’t need to draw ‘cartoon about Jesus’. Others have beaten him to it.

    Please follow these instructions:
    1) Click Internet Explorer
    2) Select ‘Images’ at the top
    3) Type in ‘Funny Jesus cartoons’

    You will even see one where he sits with a rifle in his hand.
    The caption says: “repent or be pwnt, lol”

    That neither bothers me – nor most Muslims, for that matter.
    (Despite the fact you Mussies believe that Jesus and Mohammed will rule together in heaven)

    Why should you, me and the rest of creation be concerned when people mock either of them.
    It’s God’s war – not ours. Leave it to him to reward mankind for their actions good or bad.
    (And those actions include gross terrorism, murder of innocent people and abuse of women.
    Seems Mohammedans have doubts about God’s ability to fight his own battles.

  161. 23.07.2010
    Dear All

    A couple of weeksd ago a seven year old boy was executed by the Talibans on charges of spying for the Kabul government. This was reported in most overseas newspapers, but of course not in SA as the ANC would never upset the Muslim Community here. Otherwise where would the ANC get their funds to keep going if not from (a) stealing SA blind and (b) from the Muslim Community, whose interests are to keep the ANC happy so that Islam can carry out its private conquest without drawing attention to themselves. By the way I have not heard one muslim voice raised against the execution of a little boy. AND NOW let’s stop talking about religion. I am sick and tired of reading the silly exchange of e-mails on Christianity and Islam and quotations from the Bible that have nothing to do with the matter under discussion, which involves cartoons on religious figures and the advance of Islamic bigots. I firmly believe in God and pray to him daily, BUT I’ll be damned if to believe in HIM, I have to go to church, mosque etc. and listen to a bunch of Predicants, Moollahs etc who like to brainwash people and most people are stupid enough to listen to them. I admire the Jews and the Buddists as they have never, thoughout the ages try and drum their religion down anyone’s throat. I am a christian and although I have studied the holy Kuran, I would never be a slave to religion as I am an independent thinker. Let’s stop all these silly e-mails and concentrate on something bigger that is engulfing the whole world. Kind regards Emanuelita

  162. mr MUS, PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS MOCK WHAT THEY DONT BELEIVE IN, AND MIND YOU IF SOMEBODY MOCKS JESUS I WOULD BE JUST AS MAD ABT THE IDEA, REGARDING

    EMANUELITA’S COMENT, IT IS THE PROPOGANDA WAR AGAINST THE TALIBAAN,

    THE TRUE TALIBAAN ARE SCHOLARS OF ISLAAM, THE WORD TALIBAN COMES FROM THE ARABIC WORD TALIB WHIC MEANS STUDENT, THEESE STUDENTS OF ISLAAM ARE WELL VERSED IN ISLAMIC LAW, AND ISLAMIC LAW IS ONLY APLICABLE TO ADULTS, AN ADULT COULD BE A MATURE AND SANE BOY, THIS BOY WAS NOT MATURE AND THE TALIBAAN WOULD NOT HAVE TRIED HIM AT ALL, THIS IS PROPAGANDA AND THE STRONGEST WEAPON OF THE WEST AND ITS NATO ALLIES WHO CONTINUE TO DEMONISE THE PEACE LOVING TALIBAAN, SO THEY MAY CORUPT THE HEARTS OF THE MUSLIM SUPORTERS, THE TALIBAAN HAVE NEVER COMITED A TERROSRIST ACT, THE ONLY REASON THEY ARE AT WAR WITH THE AMERICANS IS BECAUSE THE AROGANT AMERICANS REFUSED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT USAMA BIN LADEN WAS BEHIND THE 9/11 ATACKS, AND THEY DECIDED THEY ARE THE LAW, THEY WILL GO INTO ANOTHER COUNTRY TAKE THE MAN THEY WANT AND CHANGE THE GOVERMENT TO SOME PUPPET WHO WILL DANCE TO THEIR TUNES, ALL THE TALIBAN ASKED FOR WAS THE EVIDENCE SO THEY COULD TRY MR BIN LADEN IN AN ISLAMIC COURT, WHERE IF HE WAS FOUND GUILTY HE WOULD HAVE BEEN LONG AGO BEEN SENTENCED TO DEATH, AS THE COWARDLY ATACK ON THE TWIN TOWERS WAS AN ATACK ON CIVILIANS AND NOT ALLOWED EVEN IN JIHAD, SO IF THEY REALY HAD ANY EVIDENCE THAN HE WOULD DEFINATELY BEEN HISTORY BY NOW,
    “About 303 times as many people have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq than in the ghastly attacks of September 11, 2001.”
    QUOTED FROM:
    http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html

    REMEMBER THERE IS ALWAYS 2 SIDES TO A STORY, HOW ABOUT EVRYTIME YOU HERE A PIECE OF NEWS YOU LOOK FOR AN ALTERNATE NARATIVE OF THE INCIDENT AND READ BETWEEN THE LINES, AND THEN CONCLUDE ON THE SITUATION, THE REASON THIS ARTICLE WAS NOT REPORTED IN SOUTH AFRICA WAS BECAUSE THERE PROBABLY WAS NO JOURNALIST FROM OUR COUNTRY WHO GOT TO THE SCENE TO VERIFY THE NEWS AND REPORT ON IT, NO PROFESIONAL MEDIA NETWORK REPORTS ON A SITUATION OR CONVEYS NEWS WITH OUT VERYFYING IT
    YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ WHAT THE TALIBAAN SAID REGARDING THIS PIECE OF NESWS
    GO THE FOLLOWING LINK: Afghanistan Mujahideen operations and Statements

    http://theunjustmedia.com

    AND DOES ANYBODY HERE HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC EUROPEAN COUNTRIES THAT ARE GIVING PEOPLE THE FREEDOM OF RELIGION,
    IM TALKING ABOUT FRANCE BANNING THE HIJAAB IN PUBLIC, ISNT THAT’S WHAT YOU CALL DEMOCRACY?

  163. Ol' Pliny says:

    Senorita, Emanuelita, my pepita, you’re the one, who says: “I am a christian’
    Tsk, tsk, what a pity. You really should say, “I am a nominal Christian.”

    You don’t need to belong to a church, (as you say) but do need a minister when you
    get married, another to baptise your children, and yet another to to hold a bible
    when they lay you down in your grave. The bible, by the way, is that dusty thing in your book case.

    My pepita, this forum is all about religion, and others like to hear all the views expressed.
    You also say “I’m sick and tired of reading the silly exchange of e-mails on Christianity”
    Then why read them? Just hit the big X at the top of your email reader and you will be
    emancipated finish and klaar.

    Surely you are not all that vague not to believe that this whole Zapiro affair is based on religion.
    It’s a matter of tit for tat and butter for fat. (As we used to say at school)
    Christendom caused the stir when they set off to wipe out Islam in the early ages.
    Now Islam is set on avenging themselves, and now have an opposing agenda.

  164. My query is;which god condone the total enslavement of women?

  165. well, tim, why dont you open your eyes, look at the hope less and imoral conditions that the western ideology has brought out with the term of liberating woomen.
    huh
    more like enslaving woomen to be mastered by any man,
    read the following article to enlighten you on who liberated woomen

    The Status of Women in Islam

    Jamal A. Badawi provides a brief and authentic exposition of the teachings of Islam regarding women.

    CONTENTS
    PREFACE

    INTRODUCTION

    HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES

    Women in Ancient Civilization
    WOMEN IN ISLAM
    1. The Spiritual Aspect
    2. The Social Aspect
    (a) As a Child and Adolescent
    (b) As a Wife
    (c) As a Mother
    3. The Economic Aspect
    4. The political Aspect
    CONCLUSION

    BIBLIOGRAPHY

    ——————————————————————————–

    PREFACE

    Family, society and ultimately the whole of mankind is treated by Islam on an ethical basis. Differentiation in sex is neither a credit nor a drawback for the sexes. Therefore, when we talk about status of woman in Islam it should not lead us to think that Islam has no specific guidelines, limitations, responsibilities and obligations for men. What makes one valuable and respectable in the eyes of Allah, the Creator of mankind and the universe, is neither one’s prosperity, position, intelligence, physical strength nor beauty, but only one’s Allah-consciousness and awareness (taqwa). However, since in the Western culture and in cultures influenced by it, there exists a disparity between men and women there is more need for stating Islam’s position on important issues in a clear way.

    Dr. Jamal Badawi’s essay, The Status of Women in Islam, was originally published in our quarterly journal, Al-lttihad, Vol. 8, No. 2, Sha’ban 1391/Sept 1971. Since then it has been one of our most-demanded publications. We thank Br. Jamal for permitting us to reprint his essay. We hope it will clarify many of the misconceptions.

    Anis Ahmad,
    Director Dept. of Education and Training
    MSA of U.S. and Canada
    P.O. Box 38 Plainfield, IN 46168 USA

    Jumada al Thani 1400 April 1980

    ——————————————————————————–

    I. INTRODUCTION

    The status of women in society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one.

    The position of Islam on this issue has been among the subjects presented to the Western reader with the least objectivity.

    This paper is intended to provide a brief and authentic exposition of what Islam stands for in this regard. The teachings of Islam are based essentially on the Qur’an (God’s revelation) and Hadeeth (elaboration by Prophet Muhammad).

    The Qur’an and the Hadeeth, properly and unbiasedly understood, provide the basic source of authentication for any position or view which is attributed to Islam.

    The paper starts with a brief survey of the status of women in the pre-Islamic era. It then focuses on these major questions: What is the position of Islam regarding the status of woman in society? How similar or different is that position from “the spirit of the time,” which was dominant when Islam was revealed? How would this compare with the “rights” which were finally gained by woman in recent decades?

    ——————————————————————————–

    II. HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES

    One major objective of this paper is to provide a fair evaluation of what Islam contributed (or failed to contribute) toward the restoration of woman’s dignity and rights. In order to achieve this objective, it may be useful to review briefly how women were treated in general in previous civilizations and religions, especially those which preceded Islam (Pre-610 C.E.). Part of the information provided here, however, describes the status of woman as late as the nineteenth century, more than twelve centuries after Islam.

    Women in Ancient Civilization

    Describing the status of the Indian woman, Encyclopedia Britannica states:

    In India, subjection was a cardinal principle. Day and night must women be held by their protectors in a state of dependence says Manu. The rule of inheritance was agnatic, that is descent traced through males to the exclusion of females.

    In Hindu scriptures, the description of a good wife is as follows: “a woman whose mind, speech and body are kept in subjection, acquires high renown in this world, and, in the next, the same abode with her husband.”

    In Athens, women were not better off than either the Indian or the Roman women.

    “Athenian women were always minors, subject to some male – to their father, to their brother, or to some of their male kin.

    Her consent in marriage was not generally thought to be necessary and “she was obliged to submit to the wishes of her parents, and receive from them her husband and her lord, even though he were stranger to her.”

    A Roman wife was described by an historian as: “a babe, a minor, a ward, a person incapable of doing or acting anything according to her own individual taste, a person continually under the tutelage and guardianship of her husband.”

    In the Encyclopedia Britannica, we find a summary of the legal status of women in the Roman civilization:

    In Roman Law a woman was even in historic times completely dependent. If married she and her property passed into the power of her husband . . . the wife was the purchased property of her husband, and like a slave acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not exercise any civil or public office . could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make will or contract. Among the Scandinavian races women were:

    under perpetual tutelage, whether married or unmarried. As late as the Code of Christian V, at the end of the 17th Century, it was enacted that if a woman married without the consent of her tutor he might have, if he wished, administration and usufruct of her goods during her life.

    According to the English Common Law:

    …all real property which a wife held at the time of a marriage became a possession of her husband. He was entitled to the rent from the land and to any profit which might be made from operating the estate during the joint life of the spouses. As time passed, the English courts devised means to forbid a husband’s transferring real property without the consent of his wife, but he still retained the right to manage it and to receive the money which it produced. As to a wife’s personal property, the husband’s power was complete. He had the right to spend it as he saw fit.

    Only by the late nineteenth Century did the situation start to improve. “By a series of acts starting with the Married women’s Property Act in 1870, amended in 1882 and 1887, married women achieved the right to own property and to enter contracts on a par with spinsters, widows, and divorcees.” As late as the Nineteenth Century an authority in ancient law, Sir Henry Maine, wrote: “No society which preserves any tincture of Christian institutions is likely to restore to married women the personal liberty conferred on them by the Middle Roman Law.”

    In his essay The Subjection of Women, John Stuart Mill wrote:

    We are continually told that civilization and Christianity have restored to the woman her just rights. Meanwhile the wife is the actual bondservant of her husband; no less so, as far as the legal obligation goes, than slaves commonly so called.

    Before moving on to the Qur’anic decrees concerning the status of woman, a few Biblical decrees may shed more light on the subject, thus providing a better basis for an impartial evaluation. In the Mosaic Law, the wife was betrothed. Explaining this concept, the Encyclopedia Biblica states: “To betroth a wife to oneself meant simply to acquire possession of her by payment of the purchase money; the betrothed is a girl for whom the purchase money has been paid.” From the legal point of view, the consent of the girl was not necessary for the validation of her marriage. “The girl’s consent is unnecessary and the need for it is nowhere suggested in the Law.”

    As to the right of divorce, we read in the Encyclopedia Biblica: “The woman being man’s property, his right to divorce her follows as a matter of course.” The right to divorce was held only by man. “In the Mosaic Law divorce was a privilege of the husband only …. ”

    The position of the Christian Church until recent centuries seems to have been influenced by both the Mosaic Law and by the streams of thought that were dominant in its contemporary cultures. In their book, Marriage East and West, David and Vera Mace wrote:

    Let no one suppose, either, that our Christian heritage is free of such slighting judgments. It would be hard to find anywhere a collection of more degrading references to the female sex than the early Church Fathers provide. Lecky, the famous historian, speaks of (these fierce incentives which form so conspicuous and so grotesque a portion of the writing of the Fathers . . . woman was represented as the door of hell, as the mother of all human ills. She should be ashamed at the very thought that she is a woman. She should live in continual penance on account of the curses she has brought upon the world. She should be ashamed of her dress, for it is the memorial of her fall. She should be especially ashamed of her beauty, for it is the most potent instrument of the devil). One of the most scathing of these attacks on woman is that of Tertullian: Do you know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway: you are the unsealer of that forbidden tree; you are the first deserters of the divine law; you are she who persuades him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God’s image, man. On account of your desert – that is death – even the Sop of God had to die). Not only did the church affirm the inferior status of woman, it deprived her of legal rights she had previously enjoyed.

    ——————————————————————————–

    III. WOMAN IN ISLAM

    In the midst of the darkness that engulfed the world, the divine revelation echoed in the wide desert of Arabia with a fresh, noble, and universal message to humanity: “O Mankind, keep your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate (of same kind) and from them twain has spread a multitude of men and women” (Qur’an 4: 1).

    A scholar who pondered about this verse states: “It is believed that there is no text, old or new, that deals with the humanity of the woman from all aspects with such amazing brevity, eloquence, depth, and originality as this divine decree.”

    Stressing this noble and natural conception, them Qur’an states:

    He (God) it is who did create you from a single soul and therefrom did create his mate, that he might dwell with her (in love)…(Qur’an 7:189)

    The Creator of heavens and earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves …Qur’an 42:1 1

    And Allah has given you mates of your own nature, and has given you from your mates, children and grandchildren, and has made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of God that they disbelieve? Qur’an 16:72

    The rest of this paper outlines the position of Islam regarding the status of woman in society from its various aspects – spiritually, socially, economically and politically.

    1. The Spiritual Aspect

    The Qur’an provides clear-cut evidence that woman iscompletely equated with man in the sight of God interms of her rights and responsibilities. The Qur’an states:

    “Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds” (Qur’an 74:38). It also states:

    …So their Lord accepted their prayers, (saying): I will not suffer to be lost the work of any of you whether male or female. You proceed one from another …(Qur’an 3: 195).

    Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the their actions. (Qur’an 16:97, see also 4:124).

    Woman according to the Qur’an is not blamed for Adam’s first mistake. Both were jointly wrong in their disobedience to God, both repented, and both were forgiven. (Qur’an 2:36, 7:20 – 24). In one verse in fact (20:121), Adam specifically, was blamed.

    In terms of religious obligations, such as the Daily Prayers, Fasting, Poor-due, and Pilgrimage, woman is no different from man. In some cases indeed, woman has certain advantages over man. For example, the woman is exempted from the daily prayers and from fasting during her menstrual periods and forty days after childbirth. She is also exempted from fasting during her pregnancy and when she is nursing her baby if there is any threat to her health or her baby’s. If the missed fasting is obligatory (during the month of Ramadan), she can make up for the missed days whenever she can. She does not have to make up for the prayers missed for any of the above reasons. Although women can and did go into the mosque during the days of the prophet and thereafter attendance et the Friday congregational prayers is optional for them while it is mandatory for men (on Friday).

    This is clearly a tender touch of the Islamic teachings for they are considerate of the fact that a woman may be nursing her baby or caring for him, and thus may be unable to go out to the mosque at the time of the prayers. They also take into account the physiological and psychological changes associated with her natural female functions.

    2. The Social Aspect

    a) As a child and an adolescent

    Despite the social acceptance of female infanticide among some Arabian tribes, the Qur’an forbade this custom, and considered it a crime like any other murder.

    “And when the female (infant) buried alive – is questioned, for what crime she was killed.” (Qur’an 81:8-9).

    Criticizing the attitudes of such parents who reject their female children, the Qur’an states:

    When news is brought to one of them, of (the Birth of) a female (child), his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? Ah! What an evil (choice) they decide on? (Qur’an 16: 58-59).

    Far from saving the girl’s life so that she may later suffer injustice and inequality, Islam requires kind and just treatment for her. Among the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (P.) in this regard are the following:

    Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, God will enter him into Paradise. (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957).

    Whosoever supports two daughters till they mature, he and I will come in the day of judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held together).

    A similar Hadeeth deals in like manner with one who supports two sisters. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 2104).

    The right of females to seek knowledge is not different from that of males. Prophet Muhammad (P.) said:

    “Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim”. (AlBayhaqi). Muslim as used here including both males and females.

    b) As a wife:

    The Qur’an clearly indicates that marriage is sharing between the two halves of the society, and that its objectives, beside perpetuating human life, are emotional well-being and spiritual harmony. Its bases are love and mercy.

    Among the most impressive verses in the Qur’an about marriage is the following.

    “And among His signs is this: That He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest, peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect.” (Qur’an 30:2 1).

    According to Islamic Law, women cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.

    Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of God, Muhammad (P.), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: “Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)” (Ibn Maja, No. 1873).

    Besides all other provisions for her protection at the time of marriage, it was specifically decreed that woman has the full right to her Mahr, a marriage gift, which is presented to her by her husband and is included in the nuptial contract, and that such ownership does not transfer to her father or husband. The concept of Mahr in Islam is neither an actual or symbolic price for the woman, as was the case in certain cultures, but rather it is a gift symbolizing love and affection.

    The rules for married life in Islam are clear and in harmony with upright human nature. In consideration of the physiological and psychological make-up of man and woman, both have equal rights and claims on one another, except for one responsibility, that of leadership. This is a matter which is natural in any collective life and which is consistent with the nature of man.

    The Qur’an thus states:

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a degree above them.” (Qur’an 2:228).

    Such degree is Quiwama (maintenance and protection). This refers to that natural difference between the sexes which entitles the weaker sex to protection. It implies no superiority or advantage before the law. Yet, man’s role of leadership in relation to his family does not mean the husband’s dictatorship over his wife. Islam emphasizes the importance of taking counsel and mutual agreement in family decisions. The Qur’an gives us an example:

    “…If they (husband wife) desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them…” (Qur’an 2: 233).

    Over and above her basic rights as a wife comes the right which is emphasized by the Qur’an and is strongly recommended by the Prophet (P); kind treatment and companionship.

    The Qur’an states:

    “…But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good.” (Qur’an 4: l9).

    Prophet Muhammad. (P) said:

    The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family.

    The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

    Behold, many women came to Muhammad’s wives complaining against their husbands (because they beat them) – - those (husbands) are not the best of you.

    As the woman’s right to decide about her marriage is recognized, so also her right to seek an end for an unsuccessful marriage is recognized. To provide for the stability of the family, however, and in order to protect it from hasty decisions under temporary emotional stress, certain steps and waiting periods should be observed by men and women seeking divorce. Considering the relatively more emotional nature of women, a good reason for asking for divorce should be brought before the judge. Like the man, however, the woman can divorce her husband with out resorting to the court, if the nuptial contract allows that.

    More specifically, some aspects of Islamic Law concerning marriage and divorce are interesting and are worthy of separate treatment.

    When the continuation of the marriage relationship is impossible for any reason, men are still taught to seek a gracious end for it.

    The Qur’an states about such cases:

    When you divorce women, and they reach their prescribed term, then retain them in kindness and retain them not for injury so that you transgress (the limits). (Qur’an 2:231). (See also Qur’an 2:229 and 33:49).

    c) As a mother:

    Islam considered kindness to parents next to the worship of God.

    “And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness…” (Qur’an 31:14) (See also Qur’an 46:15, 29:8).

    Moreover, the Qur’an has a special recommendation for the good treatment of mothers:

    “Your Lord has decreed that you worship none save Him, and that you be kind to your parents. . .” (Qur’an 17:23).

    A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking:

    O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else? Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).

    A famous saying of The Prophet is “Paradise is at the feet of mothers.” (In Al’Nisa’I, Ibn Majah, Ahmad).

    “It is the generous (in character) who is good to women, and it is the wicked who insults them.”

    3. The Economic Aspect

    Islam decreed a right of which woman was deprived both before Islam and after it (even as late as this century), the right of independent ownership. According to Islamic Law, woman’s right to her money, real estate, or other properties is fully acknowledged. This right undergoes no change whether she is single or married. She retains her full rights to buy, sell, mortgage or lease any or all her properties. It is nowhere suggested in the Law that a woman is a minor simply because she is a female. It is also noteworthy that such right applies to her properties before marriage as well as to whatever she acquires thereafter.

    With regard to the woman’s right to seek employment it should be stated first that Islam regards her role in society as a mother and a wife as the most sacred and essential one. Neither maids nor baby-sitters can possibly take the mother’s place as the educator of an upright, complex free, and carefully-reared children. Such a noble and vital role, which largely shapes the future of nations, cannot be regarded as “idleness”.

    However, there is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature and in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Moreover, there is no restriction on benefiting from woman’s exceptional talent in any field. Even for the position of a judge, where there may be a tendency to doubt the woman’s fitness for the post due to her more emotional nature, we find early Muslim scholars such as Abu-Hanifa and Al-Tabary holding there is nothing wrong with it. In addition, Islam restored to woman the right of inheritance, after she herself was an object of inheritance in some cultures. Her share is completely hers and no one can make any claim on it, including her father and her husband.

    “Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much – a determinate share.” ((Qur’an 4:7).

    Her share in most cases is one-half the man’s share, with no implication that she is worth half a man! It would seem grossly inconsistent after the overwhelming evidence of woman’s equitable treatment in Islam, which was discussed in the preceding pages, to make such an inference. This variation in inheritance rights is only consistent with the variations in financial responsibilities of man and woman according to the Islamic Law. Man in Islam is fully responsible for the maintenance of his wife, his children, and in some cases of his needy relatives, especially the females. This responsibility is neither waived nor reduced because of his wife’s wealth or because of her access to any personal income gained from work, rent, profit, or any other legal means.

    Woman, on the other hand, is far more secure financially and is far less burdened with any claims on her possessions. Her possessions before marriage do not transfer to her husband and she even keeps her maiden name. She has no obligation to spend on her family out of such properties or out of her income after marriage. She is entitled to the “Mahr” which she takes from her husband at the time of marriage. If she is divorced, she may get an alimony from her ex-husband.

    An examination of the inheritance law within the overall framework of the Islamic Law reveals not only justice but also an abundance of compassion for woman.

    4. The Political Aspect

    Any fair investigation of the teachings of Islam o~ into the history of the Islamic civilization will surely find a clear evidence of woman’s equality with man in what we call today “political rights”.

    This includes the right of election as well as the nomination to political offices. It also includes woman’s right to participate in public affairs. Both in the Qur’an and in Islamic history we find examples of women who participated in serious discussions and argued even with the Prophet (P) himself, (see Qur’an 58: 14 and 60: 10-12).

    During the Caliphate of Omar Ibn al-Khattab, a woman argued with him in the mosque, proved her point, and caused him to declare in the presence of people: “A woman is right and Omar is wrong.”

    Although not mentioned in the Qur’an, one Hadeeth of the Prophet is interpreted to make woman ineligible for the position of head of state. The Hadeeth referred to is roughly translated: “A people will not prosper if they let a woman be their leader.” This limitation, however, has nothing to do with the dignity of woman or with her rights. It is rather, related to the natural differences in the biological and psychological make-up of men and women.

    According to Islam, the head of the state is no mere figurehead. He leads people in the prayers, especially on Fridays and festivities; he is continuously engaged in the process of decision-making pertaining to the security and well-being of his people. This demanding position, or any similar one, such as the Commander of the Army, is generally inconsistent with the physiological and psychological make-up of woman in general. It is a medical fact that during their monthly periods and during their pregnancies, women undergo various physiological and psychological changes. Such changes may occur during an emergency situation, thus affecting her decision, without considering the excessive strain which is produced. Moreover, some decisions require a maximum of rationality and a minimum of emotionality – a requirement which does not coincide with the instinctive nature of women.

    Even in modern times, and in the most developed countries, it is rare to find a woman in the position of a head of state acting as more than a figurehead, a woman commander of the armed services, or even a proportionate number of women representatives in parliaments, or similar bodies. One can not possibly ascribe this to backwardness of various nations or to any constitutional limitation on woman’s right to be in such a position as a head of state or as a member of the parliament. It is more logical to explain the present situation in terms of the natural and indisputable differences between man and woman, a difference which does not imply any “supremacy” of one over the other. The difference implies rather the “complementary” roles of both the sexes in life.

    ——————————————————————————–

    IV. CONCLUSION

    The first part of this paper deals briefly with the position of various religions and cultures on the issue under investigation. Part of this exposition extends to cover the general trend as late as the nineteenth century, nearly 1300 years after the Qur’an set forth the Islamic teachings.

    In the second part of the paper, the status of women in Islam is briefly discussed. Emphasis in this part is placed on the original and authentic sources of Islam. This represents the standard according to which degree of adherence of Muslims can be judged. It is also a fact that during the downward cycle of Islamic Civilization, such teachings were not strictly adhered to by many people who profess to be Muslims.

    Such deviations were unfairly exaggerated by some writers, and the worst of this, were superficially taken to represent the teachings of “Islam” to the Western reader without taking the trouble to make any original and unbiased study of the authentic sources of these teachings.

    Even with such deviations three facts are worth mentioning:

    1. The history of Muslims is rich with women of great achievements in all walks of life from as early as the seventh century (B.C.)

    2. It is impossible for anyone to justify any mistreatment of woman by any decree of rule embodied in the Islamic Law, nor could anyone dare to cancel, reduce, or distort the clear-cut legal rights of women given in Islamic Law.

    3. Throughout history, the reputation, chastity and maternal role of Muslim women were objects of admiration by impartial observers.

    It is also worthwhile to state that the status which women reached during the present era was not achieved due to the kindness of men or due to natural progress. It was rather achieved through a long struggle and sacrifice on woman’s part and only when society needed her contribution and work, more especial!; during the two world wars, and due to the escalation of technological change.

    In the case of Islam such compassionate and dignified status was decreed, not because it reflects the environment of the seventh century, nor under the threat or pressure of women and their organizations, but rather because of its intrinsic truthfulness.

    If this indicates anything, it would demonstrate the divine origin of the Qur’an and the truthfulness of the message of Islam, which, unlike human philosophies and ideologies, was far from proceeding from its human environment, a message which established such humane principles as neither grew obsolete during the course of time and after these many centuries, nor can become obsolete in the future. After all, this is the message of the All-Wise and all-knowing God whose wisdom and knowledge are far beyond the ultimate in human thought and progress.

    ——————————————————————————–

    BIBLIOGRAPHY

    The Holy, Qur’an: Translation of verses is heavily based on A. Yusuf Ali’s translation, The Glorious Qur’an, text translation, and Commentary, The American Trust Publication, Plainfield, IN 46168, 1979.

    Abd Al-Ati, Hammudah, Islam in Focus, The American Trust Publications, Plainfield, IN 46168, 1977.

    Allen, E. A., History of Civilization, General Publishing House, Cincinnati, Ohio, 1889, Vol. 3.

    Al Siba’i, Mustafa, Al-Alar’ah Baynal Fiqh Walqanoon (in Arabic), 2nd. ea., Al-Maktabah Al-Arabiah, Halab, Syria, 1966.

    El-Khouli, Al-Bahiy, “Min Usus Kadiat Al-Mara’ah” (in Arabic), A 1- Waay A l-lslami, Ministry of Walcf, Kuwait, Vol.3 (No. 27), June 9, 1967, p.17.

    Encyclopedia Americana (International Edition), American Corp., N.Y., 1969, Vol.29.

    Encyclopedia Biblica (Rev.T.K.Cheynene and J.S.Black, editors), The Macmillan Co., London, England, 1902, Vol.3.

    The Encyclopedia Britannica, (11 th ed.), University Press Cambridge, England, 191 1, Vol.28.

    Encyclopedia Britannica, The Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc., Chicago, III., 1968, Vol.23.

    Hadeeth. Most of the quoted Hadeeth were translated by the writer. They are quoted in various Arabic sources. Some of them, however, were translated directly from the original sources. Among the sources checked are Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Dar AlMa’aref, Cairo, U.A.R., 1950, and 1955, Vol.4 and 3,SunanIbnMajah, Dar Ihya’a Al-Kutub al-Arabiah, Cairo, U.A.R., 1952, Vol.l, Sunan al-Tirimidhi, Vol.3.

    Mace, David and Vera, Marriage: East and West, Dolphin Books, Doubleday and Co., Inc., N.Y., 1960.

  166. slavery is not what the muslim woomen thinks she is

    The Muslim Woman “Unveiled”
    By Izdehar Albowyha

    You look at me and call me oppressed,
    Simply because of the way I’m dressed,

    You know me not for what’s inside,
    You judge the clothing I wear with pride,

    My body’s not for your eyes to hold,
    You must speak to my mind, not my feminine mold,
    I’m an individual, I’m no mans slave,
    It’s Allah’s pleasure that I only crave,

    I have a voice so I will be heard,
    For in my heart I carry His word,

    “O ye women, wrap close your cloak,
    So you won’t be bothered by ignorant folk”,
    Man doesn’t tell me to dress this way,
    It’s a Law from God that I obey,

    Oppressed is something I’m truly NOT,
    For liberation is what I’ve got,

    It was given to me many centuries ago,
    With the right to prosper, the right to grow,
    I can climb mountains or cross the seas,
    Expand my mind in all degrees,
    For God Himself gave us LIB-ER-TY,

    When He sent Islam,

    To You and Me!
    ——————————————————————————————-
    Behind the veil I am the queen..
    I have a body that nobody seen..
    Many people think I am oppressed-
    And wonder how I got myself into this mess..

    My veil is my cure..
    And makes my heart pure..
    It earns me my love from Allah my Lord..
    And makes me strong against any sword..

    Behind my beautiful veil lies..
    My savior from the temptation of guys!
    ‘Behind my veil,’ I begin to say..
    ‘Is where I shall forever stay!’

    Who I Am !
    [Must Read To Know What is Hijab]
    (An Excellent poem about the Muslim Woman)

    What do you see
    when you look at me
    Do you see someone limited,
    or someone free

    All some people can do is just look and stare
    Simply because they can’t see my hair

    Others think I am controlled and uneducated
    They think that I am limited and un-liberated

    They are so thankful that they are not me
    Because they would like to remain ‘free’

    Well free isn’t exactly the word I would’ve used
    Describing women who are cheated on and abused

    They think that I do not have opinions or voice
    They think that being hooded isn’t my choice

    They think that the hood makes me look caged
    That my husband or dad are totally outraged

    All they can do is look at me in fear
    And in my eye there is a tear

    Not because I have been stared at or made fun of
    But because people are ignoring the one up above

    On the day of judgment they will be the fools
    Because they were too ashamed to play by their own rules

    Maybe the guys won’t think I am a cutie
    But at least I am filled with more inner beauty

    See I have declined from being a guy’s toy
    Because I won’t let myself be controlled by a boy

    Real men are able to appreciate my mind
    And aren’t busy looking at my behind

    Hooded girls are the ones really helping the muslim cause
    The role that we play definitely deserves applause

    I will be recognized because I am smart and bright
    And because some people are inspired by my sight

    The smart ones are attracted by my tranquility
    In the back of their mind they wish they were me

    We have the strength to do what we think is right
    Even if it means putting up a life long fight

    You see we are not controlled by a mini skirt and tight shirt
    We are given only respect, and never treated like dirt

    So you see, we are the ones that are free and liberated
    We are not the ones that are sexually terrorized and violated

    We are the ones that are free and pure
    We’re free of STD’s that have no cure

    So when people ask you how you feel about the hood
    Just sum it up by saying ‘baby its all good’

  167. Why Are Women Turning to Islam? Izdehar Albowyha
    Why Are Women Turning to Islam?

    At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN.

    The status of women in society is neither a new issue, nor is it a fully settled one. And where Islam is mentioned, for many the term ‘Muslim Women’ prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, ‘victims’ suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex. I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called ‘civilized’ societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their ‘liberty’ and ‘independence’ to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?

    As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the ‘freedom’ that women claim to have in this society in favour of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position, which is completely unique when compared with that of our non-Muslim counterparts.

    Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where a woman was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map. The problem was ongoing: new ‘women’s issues’ being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would
    accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All of this, coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.
    However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly, I wasn’t satisfied with my own status as a woman in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom’ and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happened in practice. The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself. Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 1990′s was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum.

    Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week – Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus.

    Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues, which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned, taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of a woman lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society – as had men – with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: “Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them” [Nisaa 4:124]

    So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas, which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.

    http://www.beconvinced.com

  168. Ol' Pliny says:

    Tim, I can answer that, but not in a single word. Our friend Haffy has just given us Islam’s
    view of how women are to be treated, so allow my to explain how the God of the Bible
    intended that we should treat them. Man and woman are equal in God’s eye’s. He made
    man in his own image, meaning that they would be able to reason, and have qualities of
    love, judgment, wisdom, understanding and be creative in their activities. When God created a wife for Adam,
    he declared that she would be a helper comparable to him. (Genesis 2:18 NKJV) Not lower, but comparable
    as what we are to God himself, by honouring and respecting him.

    The two were joined as one flesh. (Gen 2:24) Who then, would damage their own flesh? (Eph 5:28,29)
    Although equal in all respects, each have their separate roles. The husband is the cultivator, shepherd and
    does most of all the harder work, such as providing shelter, etc. The wife, being a weaker vessel, cares
    for the offspring, and handles the domestic affairs. (1 Peter 3:7)
    Now, if you read that last scripture you will find that God requires that the husband must honor his wife,
    seeing that both are equal heirs to his kingdom. If not, then God will ignore the husband’s prayers.

    When Adam and Eve sinned, they lost the privilege of being under God’s care. Seeing they rejected God by
    preferring to listen to Satan, God abandoned them to what he knew would be their future lot in life.

    A similar situation arose soon after God decided to choose the Israelities as his people. They decided that
    they preferred a human king. (1 Sam 8:1-18) There again, God told them how they would suffer under
    the rulership of a human king, who would thoroughly abuse them.

    He did the same to Adam and Eve when they refused to abide by his rulings. He would no longer care for them
    in a physical sense, and he would turn a blind eye to the way their husbands would abuse them. (Gen 3:16)
    Not to long after that Cain set the example of the results of their estrangement from God, by murdering his
    brother Abel, and most of mankind began abusing their women. Christian, Muslim, Hindu et al.
    Estate agents well know what some houses look like inside after pre-divorce rows.

  169. Ol' Pliny says:

    Haffy, there is something fishy about two of your previous posts regarding
    the treatment of women.
    One is fluent and well presented as if coming from Haffy the wife,
    whereas the other is Haffy’ the dominator’s typical, capitalised error filled presentation.

    Please inform us whether one of them is your alter ego, and the your better half,
    cum slave, cum forced to please floor rag.

  170. Ol' Pliny says:

    Peace, peace, peace is what we hear from Haffy, but the war drags on.
    Perhaps Emanuelita has also grown weary of all this Islam peace crap.
    Islam is supposed to be derived from the root word Salema meaning peace.
    Haffy shouts out about “THE PEACE LOVING TALIBAAN”
    It’s ‘Peace to his name’ whenever a prophet is mentioned by name.
    But the terrorism drags on and onnnnn. Haffy, please spare us all this peace crap.

    It was due to violence that god destroyed all on earth except Noah’s family. (Gen6:11)
    A couple of hundred years later the Hebrews tried to hide their sins by also shouting “PEACE”
    God told them, “There is no peace” (Jer 6:14; 8:11; Eze 13:10)
    Peace was taken away from the Earth In case you don’t know. (Rev 6:4)

    The redskins also jumped on the peace wagon, but despite all their peace pipe smoking, the scalps
    of their enemies kept their wigwams warm all winter.

    The League of Nations (1919 tried to force peace on earth, but failed miserably, and they faded out when war broke out for the second time in 1939. They took off again soon after 1945
    as the United Nations. In front of their headquarters, is a statue of a man beating his sword into
    a plough. And just how do they maintain peace – The natural way for mankind, IE: to send armed
    troops into countries to try an stop their fighting. It’s anyone’s guess which side they favour.

    If Islam is so peaceful, then tell why did Muslims attack the New York Trade Centre.
    Why did they have to saw off their hostages heads on TV – Live?
    Haffy, there will only be peace on this earth when the great prophet Shiloh returns. (Isa 6:9)

  171. OL`PINY!AM I HEARING A KETTLE CALLING THE POT BLACK HERE?YOU WESTERNERS AND EUROPEANS ATRE NO DIFFERENT IN PRACTISING INJUSTICES,INHUMANITIES AND INEQUALITIES!

    LOOK AT THE WAY BRITISH SLAUGHTERED KENYANS AND BROWN`S SMACKING RESPONSE WHEN HE WAS ASKED HOW HE FELT ABOUT THOSE SLAUGHTERS TO QUELL MAUMAU…!YOUR RELIGIOUS HOUSES LIKE CHARISMATIC CHURCHES,CULT CHURCHES ARE NOTHING BUT CULTS AND CHAUVINISM AND cALVINISM IS THE ORDER OF THE DAY!

    YOUR CHURCHES ARE USED FOR POLITICAL REASONS TO BRAINWASH AND INDOCTRINATE,DIVIDE AND HATE.

  172. HAFFY!I`M NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR BIBLE BUT SEEK STRAIGHT ANSWER AND THAT YOU HAV NOT BEEN FAIOR TO YOUR WOMEN AND THAT FROM NOW ON YOU WILL LOOK AT THAT ISSUE.

    I`M TALKING ABOUT THE WOMEN WE ARE TOLD ARE THE WIVES OF SO-AND-SO BUT IN REAL LIF ARE VIRTUAL SLAVES WHERE EVEN C-MAX PRISONERS ENJOY BETTER PRIVILEGES THAN HEM BECAUSE THE CAN COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR LOVED ONES TELEPHONICALLY WHEREAS THESE POOR SOULS MUST DISOWN THEIR LOVED ONES AND ADOPT THE WOULD-BE HUSBANDS LOVED ONES.

    THEY ARE GUARDED AROUND THE CLOCK EVEN BY THEIR CHILDREN SO THAT THEY DON`T GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE PHONE AND THE CHILDREN ANSWER THE PHONE .IN BUSINESS THEY BECOME THE SERVANTS OF CHILDREN BY STANDING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COUNTER AND BRING ITEMS THE CHILDREN ORDERS.THEY MUS BE THE FIRST TO GT-UP AND THE LAST TO GO TO BED AND THIS ISCAPTIVITY AND ENSLAVEMENT OF THE WORST KIND.

    WHEN THE HUSBAND DIES CHILDREN KICK HER OUT AND SHUT HER OUT OF THEIR LIVES .EVEN IF THEY SEE HER SUFFERING AS THEY DROVE PASSED THEY WON`T EVEN FEEL PITY.IF THEY ARE SUSPECTED OF ANYTHING THEY ARE SYSTEMATICALLY SLICED-UP,PACKED INTO A SUITCASE AND DUMPED AT SEA!!!!!!!!!STOP IT!1

  173. Ol' Pliny says:

    No Haffy, both the pot and the kette are RED – Red with the blood of their own kind.
    My post referring to the two great wars included all the nations in the world.
    Catholics killed Catholics, Protestants killed Protestants and Aetheists killed Aetheists.
    In Palestine Muslims killed Muslims, and Muslims killed Jews, and Jews killed Muslims.

    Tim, abuse of Muslim women will never cease in Muslim countries – It’s convenient, and will remain so in
    what they believe is their afterlife in Heaven.

    Alll terrorists, including those who killled 3000 at the New York Trade Centre, were promised that they would
    each receive seventy brand new fresh out of the box virgins to violate when they get uo there. No one stops
    to ask where the virgins will come from. Perhaps they were told that their God will create new ones.

    Tim, go online and google ‘Women in mosques’ select the third option, which takes you to ‘Islam today’
    The article was written by an American convert to Islam.

  174. Haffy, will you and your religion ever grow up? I have read your comments about your conversion and how you had such problems with Christianity, tell me did you ever delve deep enough into Christianity to find the answers you think you have found with Islam. The major difference, and it is one that, causes all of the problems we face, is the FREEDOM of worship. Christians choose how often they pray, attend church, what they feel comfortable wearing, both male and female, this is not forced upon us by our church or the community. The nice poem that you have included about a muslim women feeling so comfortable in her covered veil is I am afraid just that, the women are indoctrinated and coerced across muslim society by their families and husbands to conform, and if you ask them, are too scared to say anything against it. And that is just what Islam is all about, fear, sowing fear and indoctrination within the communities, no – one has to tell me how often I need to pray and if I dont attend church I am frowned on and questioned by my community, it is my free choice. What I can’t understand is this, if the Islamic religion is what you say it is, how come you need to be regulated to such an extent as to be told how many times to pray, go to mosque, what to wear, don’t you have the moral fiber built into you by being Muslims that you can trust your followers to behave themselves?

  175. Ol' Pliny says:

    Mike, you are absolutely right. No one has the right to tell you how often you need
    to pray. I’ll add that you are also free to pray in any direction that is convenient,
    and you need not have to remove your shoes when you enter building set aside for
    the purpose of worship. Those things are meaningless idolatrous rites.

    True, Daniel had routinely, with his window open prayed towards Jerusalem three times a day.
    It was his own unique choice, saddened by the desolation of that city. Nowhere did the true God
    ever lay down regulations in this respect. By choice, my prayers are also regular, but I don’t feel
    bad if I happened to miss a session when I had nothing on my mind at the time.

    People who love God pray from the heart, and when they need to communicate with him, either by
    way of praise, offering thanks or petitioning. Prayers of those forced to pray in a set manner are as
    meaningless as those of the monks who spin rows of prayer cylinders each time they pass them.

  176. Ol' Pliny says:

    Mike, some may interpret your words, “Haffy, will you and your religion ever
    grow up? ” as aggressive or antogonistic. It was really constructive criticism,
    on your part to inspire Haffy to do a little self analysis.

    Others may differ regarding the purpose of their posts, but mine, and hopefully yours, is to pass on
    our combined knowledge and experience to others, in the hope that we will achieve unity in thought
    and deed.

    This business of praying a set number of times in a determined direction is a meaningless ritual.
    The Oxford dictionary explaines the word as being based on rites.

    When I was manager of a certain section, my superior told me to regularly ensure that the staff
    carried a certain task. In effect he was telling me to incorporate that as a routine of my own.
    Routine is defined in the same dictionary as ‘a regular course of action. (Prevalence)

    Now supposing I only did this on Mondays and Fridays. That would change it into a ritual.
    The staff would eventually notice this and ignore the ruling on the other three days.
    Rather than set a fixed day and hour for that task, I left it to their initiative and followed it up.

    My search on the internet regarding the influence of Islam in Africa shows a steady decline
    rather than what we have been led to believe. The main objection being the regular mosque attendance.
    Most complain that is lessens their opportuities to eke out a living.

    The participative management that I introduced, made my staff feel as if they were part of the business.
    Now, supposing someone had to come and tell me that three times a day at a certain time of the day,
    I would have considered that person to be an insincere sycophant.
    Should not God in his greater wisdom not see things in the same way.

  177. I don`t dispute the fact that all communities have traditional,customary or religious laws that put women in their place however they ensure women do not lose their unioversal rights and freedoms.

    Whites let their women stay at home and do home chores but its something that has been worked-out by both and in fact some whites pay their wives a salary and other employee benefits equivalent to those of a butler whereas with Arabs and Hindus its total enslavement and hate speech against this poor soul since all those related to the alleged husband are told she`s their ervant not n equal.

    White women who married Arab men including cricketer Khan`s ex wrote books after they divorced these men telling account-by-account how women are treated by their men and inlaws!

  178. Ol' Pliny says:

    Seems the Zapiro debate has died out. It also appears as if most in this forum saw
    all this merely as a struggle between Zapiro, who is Jewish, or Jews vesus Moslems.
    No Siree! The issue involves everyone on this planet, whether they are believers of
    Christ, any other religion, or whether agnostic or atheist.
    The great diversity of opinion we have read in these columns in itself proves that, if left to humanity,
    a common ground of hope may never be established. We may as well all be heathens.

    One has to face the fact that the Bible is the first written source of information about the almighty
    true God, as well as the history of the creation of man. The first of these lacked nothing. They were
    placed in a paradise of perfect climate that required no clothing. They did not even need to toil for a
    living, as Eden was filled with food of every kind. Being perfect, they would have remained living
    forever here on this very earth, had they remained faithful to just one single commandment.

    They sinned by being disobedient to the commandment God laid upon them, namely that they must not
    eat from just one tree in Eden. That single sin resulted not only in their own deaths, but that of all the
    billions of their descendants who could have have lived down to this very day. What a massacre!
    Yet, Islam believes that God forgave them. Impossible! If he did, they would have remained alive.

    Now, here’s the crunch: The only way that God could redeem Adam’s offspring who inherited Adam’s
    sentence of death, (Rom 5:12) was to send another perfect man to this earth to die a sacrificial death
    on behalf of all mankind – Jesus. (John 3:16-18)

    No human after Adam, including Mohammed, who himself, was born in sin, and eventually died as a
    result of the imperfection of his inherited sin, could have provided a corresponding propitiation.
    (Heb 2:17 In fact, at Gal 1:8 the apostle Paul said, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven preach
    any gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

    To emphasise the gravity of this, he then repeats, “As we have said before, so now I say again, if
    anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

  179. [Inappropriate content deleted by moderators] go ZAPIRO you rock

  180. The issue revolves around some of the rules within the Islamic religion. In the Quran it clearly states that pictures etc depicting Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is not allowed and thus it is offence to all Muslims. I personally do not have an issue with it because I am not Muslim. For a Christian it’s different. We are supposed to live our lives in His image. Tolerance goes all ways. Respect their religion and I’ll expect them to respect ours.

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